WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

You’d get a message if you were offline for 30 minutes?! My boss wouldn’t notice or care.

The point re the OPs situation is that the company are expecting her to be flexible in that she is expected to work outside of contracted hours for no extra pay BUT are not offering her the same

Yes I would get a message if I was offline for thirty minutes, as I have a job where I continually have tasks that need to be done during a certain timeframe. My presence is always registered on a certain group teams chat as we do group tasks

I just asked my cousin this question, out of interest.

He works in IT support, from home.

When he signs in, he is also on a groups team chat and they they help each other do tasks. His presence is monitored there.

He said if he went offline for thirty minutes ( at not an assigned break time) he would also get a call asking where he is

It sounds like you’re not in a particularly senior position then - although saying that, I’ve never had my time monitored to that degree even when I was in less senior positions.

You previously said you don’t leave your seat unless you’re on a break or lunchtime; to me that sounds incredibly unhealthy and unusual (indeed, my company’s official guidance is to leave you desk at least once every house!)

Not everyone is going to be in a senior position are they?

That wasnt a criteria to reply to this thread.

It's not unusual. A lot of people who work from home, are not allowed to leave their desk except for toilet breaks or lunch breaks.

There is a huge amount of remote monitoring software. Employers monitor what you do at home.

One of my best friends works as a quality engineer for a medical device company from home.

He doesn't leave his desks, except for breaks.

I’m shocked that you think a normal working practice is to not leave your desk, except for 1 break and lunch - that cannot be healthy and I’d question the quality of your work to be honest…

You’ve missed the OP’s point anyway, in that the employer is expecting flexibility outside of contracted working hours but not offering flexibility inside of the working hours - so essentially OP is being asked to work for more than 7 hours a day but not being paid for it

@Lizzie67384 but some of us can't leave our desks

That's a separate thing, if you're in a more senior position then yes you can but I'm paid to be at my desk and answering the phone

Yes but @Abbylikeswine was suggesting in the course of an 8 hour day she has 1 break and lunch - so literally sits at her desk for 8 hours and only gets up twice - which I said was an unhealthy working practice

That you are looking to move is on THEM.

It is not a good fit, that is all.

Have you ever thought of contracting?
It's a great way to quietly see and hear about the culture in an organisation without committing.

Asking about flexibility.
Mentioning that you have no problem having eyes on work in the evening when it is required, when an organisation is flexible.

Why are you doing unacknowledged work in the evenings when you are being monitored all day.

What work is your boss doing to be micromanaging employees like that?

Its creepy, particularly as you work evenings.
Are you being asked to respond in the evenings?
If so I think you need to flag that the micromanaging seems invasive considering the length of your day.

The point that you seem to be repeatedly missing is that the OP has stated that she IS in a senior job and that she DOES need to get permission to go for unauthorised breaaks

But as you (again) keep ignoring - she is also in a role that expects her to be flexible and available outside of her standard hours 🙄 employers don't get to have it both ways.

Either your staff are senior enough to be salaried and to flex their hours when needed, or they're not. Either is fine, but you can't demand all the benefits of a flexible employee without also giving them the ability to take some personal time as and when it suits them.

If OP was never expected to work outside of her contract then you may have more of a point 😂

I suspect OP was also never told she would be monitored to this extent - given it isn't in the open, she can just tell it's happening. She expected this job to work like the vast majority of jobs like it, that's not unreasonable of her.

That's normal for me too
2 breaks and 1 lunch (30 mins) in a 9hr shift

Wow that’s crazy, how long are your breaks? Do you have a policy on WFH? I’m surprised that an employer would advocate for this practice - research has shown that regular breaks are healthy and quality of work improves

Exactly.

In most jobs, seniority comes with the benefit of flexitime - it's normal. Even in more closely monitored environments like retail, managers can still be more flexible than say, Brenda on checkouts or Ben stacking shelves.

But that flip side is that you're often expected to come in early or stay late when needed, and to answer your phone on days off etc.

That said, I've worked all kinds of roles and I've never, ever been monitored to the extent that I can't leave my desk except for a set break, or to point that I can't even go and get a cup of coffee or chat to a colleague for a few minutes.

@Lizzie67384 2 x 15 mins and then my 30 min lunch
It's exactly the same as if I was in the office. Call centre work

@spikeandbuffy what you describe is incredibly unhealthy and goes against all the guidance around working with computers.

You're supposed to get up at least once an hour and take a break from the screen, as well as to stretch and get moving.

Ah okay, I see - purely out of interest (I work in h&s) does your company have a policy on healthy working practices?

@Lizzie67384 no idea, I haven't looked at it
I've done call centre work for the NHS, emergency service and various other places over 18 years and they're all the same with breaks

If I'm off away from my desk for a walk/stretch then I'm not doing my job. Can stand up of course but it's a wired headset so limited by that. If it's a long stretch so maybe 3hrs without a break scheduled then I will nip to the toilet and get a drink (5 mins)

X-post re. call centres.

I do think, though, that just because some jobs require people to be at their desks constantly, we shouldn't be normalising it and making everyone do it "just because".

Wow that sounds hard - I wonder if this is just specific to call centre type jobs?

Definitely, if you're not needed to be at your desk then no need
I did look at another job recently but said no as they only get 1hr lunch in 9hrs and are at their desk the full time apart from that

Time management is a pretty basic part of any job. If you've hired someone in a more senior role who can't manage their time well, you've failed in your hiring and interview processes. If someone isn't good at time management (and lots of people struggle with it,) and they haven't learnt any strategies to deal with it, then you should have found that out during the hiring process.

Managers who have time to micromanage don't have enough of their own work. They might need to work closely with a new member of staff, but that should be to learn the internal processes and so on, not checking if they go to the loo too often or buy a packet of crisps.

I completely manage my own time and workload. I track my hours to ensure I stick to the expected amount and always get great performance reviews. I WFH and yesterday I did a clean, batch cooking and nipped out for a run (which is unusually high amount of non work stuff) but then did some evening hours of work so it evens out. I rarely have meetings with others whereas my DP who has a flexible working policy (and agreed with boss ability to take afternoons off twice a week if hours are made up) has a lot of meetings and more rapid turnover of deliverables so has to generally be more present. I don't think you are unreasonable but guess it depends on the role and industry to how ok it actually is

Managers who have time to micromanage don't have enough of their own work. They might need to work closely with a new member of staff, but that should be to learn the internal processes and so on, not checking if they go to the loo too often or buy a packet of crisps.

I'd also say they're pretty shit at recruiting if they can't hire grown ups who can manage to both nip out for a coffee and do their jobs properly 😂

Or maybe just in the OP's role and with her micro-managing boss who trusts bottom on seat over actual work.

Well all this thread tells me, is that I'm never leaving my job! It's boring sometimes but I can do it whenever I want. The only time I give my manager a heads up is if I'm not going to log on all day. Even then it's a courtesy thing rather than a requirement.

But then my job is that I'm given a bulk load of work and just go through it. Not many meetings, no real interactions necessary above just emailing people here and there.

I don't think I could go back to strict hours now so can see why OP is finding it difficult. If you've always done it then you're used to it. But once you get used to flexibility it's hard to give up. Especially if you can't see any real justification for it.