WFH - What is reasonable?

[Nutellla]

Looking for views on whether I have unreasonable expectations about WFH. I have worked from home for over 8 years in two different jobs and never had an issue until now. In previous roles I have been trusted to do my job and manage my time accordingly. This has often meant that I work late in the evening when required etc. but during the day, I was able to manage my time (within reason). For example, I always logged on in time in the morning but would occasionally work in a cafe to get out of the house or pop out to do the school run for 15 mins or go to the corner shop if I wanted some chocolate :-) Nobody was ever bothered, as long as my objectives were being met.

I started a new job 6 months ago, I'm senior project manager level with no direct reports. I need to travel 40% of my time, which involves flexibility on my part with early mornings and over night stays etc - I have no issue in this. I also need to work late occasionally.

When I am not travelling I WFH but my line manager and his manager have Teams alerts set up against everyone in the company and if the status changes from 'active' to amber (indicating that your mouse hasn't moved) you get a phone call with some lame question but essentially it's a checking up call. I thought at first I was being paranoid but over the last 6 months the following has happened:

1. I was away from my desk for 20 mins as was dealing with a plumber who had come to fix our shower - phone call from boss
2. Away from my desk for 15 mins having a chat with my neighbour who had brought over a package - phone call from boss
3. Went off line for 25 mins as was working in a cafe and forgot my charger so had to go home - phone call from boss with impromptu 1:1
4. Popped to the corner shop today for 15 mins as I wanted some chocolate - phonecall from boss.
5. Boss has said in conversation, he needs to know where I am at all times.

Are my expectations unreasonable or did I just have it too good in my previous job? If you are WFH is it okay to step away from your desk. Its not like I am customer service or answering phone calls all day. I often don't speak to people (unless it's my boss checking up on me - haha!) There are other issues too and am looking for another job but interested on views if it is the same elsewhere?

This. Unless it’s a pattern with no explanation then I would assume employee not employee was at fault. Sometimes you just have to be honest and say the culture didn’t fit. As a hiring manager I admire people who admit this as it shows self-awareness and a desire to be happy at work which I think makes people more productive.

In terms of asking about culture - I asked this as a question in my interview for my current role and frequently get asked it by prospective employees in interviews. It’s much more common to think about since the pandemic. It doesn’t mean people are slacking, just that they value the experience of work and see it as more than just something they have to do. I’d never have an issue with being asked and anyone who did have an issue would be a massive red flag.

"It's different for all employers I know.

But none of my employers have actually ever asked me to work outside set hours"

@Abbylikeswine but the OP's employers do expect her to work outside set hours, and that's where mutual flexibility needs to come in. If I am being expected to wake up at 4am to travel to various sites for 40% of my work week in a senior role then I would expect my employer to not bat an eye when I want to pop out for a chocolate bar. They can't have it both ways, and we all need to hold employers to account on things like this.

I recently went on a work trip that involved travelling to three cities across three days to hold meetings with stakeholders. This involved hours and hours of travelling, working 12 hour days etc., and if after that my employer had attempted to even ask me where I was if I was "offline" for 20 minutes one day I would have raised hell.

@Nutellla honestly your workplace sounds quite restrictive and childlike. No one should need to be checked up on if they are an adult in the workplace. Your output should be evidence of what you do. I had to take an hour out my day today while wfh to pick a child up. It’s fine. I’ll catch up if I need to. I often logon during days off if something catches my eye. I’m not bound by 9-5 set days and unless there is a contracted reason to do so why would you? As long as the work is being done why does it matter if you’re flexible with timing.
I guess that’s the chat I would have.
you work during off times. You travel distance. You complete your work. You are flexible with them. Can they not reciprocate since you’ve noticed the concern calls when you drop offline. Is that necessary moving forward. Is it essential company practice. If so, that role is not what you see yourself doing long term and will be looking for a more mature management culture.

Yanbu, your company sounds horrific. 15 and 30 mins breaks here and there, as long as your work is done is more than fine. Hell, I've taken an hour and a half break to workout or cook a nice lunch, been offline and left a status message that I'm away and nobody batted an eye. I would not be able to work in such a toxic and micromanaging environment, sounds stressful AF.

A lot of jobs are like the OPs.

You said you took an hour and a half break to work out.

Did you ask your employer permission to do this?

I read online about people who got fired, after their employer realise they weren't at their desk for their scheduled work hours

Did you ask your employer permission to do this?

The point that you seem to be repeatedly missing, is that in many senior jobs you don't need to go around asking permission. You're in charge of your own time and can generally do what you want as long as the work is being done on time.

But sure we have to do what our employer wants. We have signed a contract.-

I don't believe for one second that your contract says you can never get up from your desk apart from during set breaks.

If we want the money, we have agreed to work set hours.

Except OP's employer also expects her to be available in evenings etc. for no extra pay. If they want that level of flexibility, they have to be expected to "give" a bit too.

And working set hours doesn't mean never leaving your desk and chair for those set hours, by the way.

Exactly, I've switched direction now but when I was a senior manager it would never have crossed my mind to ask permission to nip out to do something, whether I was in the office or at home. I often worked late into the evening or got calls when I was on holiday, so the trade off was a lot of autonomy about how I spent my day.

Similarly with the team I managed, they all worked hard and if they needed or wanted a break at a random time I would have been fine with it (but anything longer than 30 minutes and I would expect them to show it in their calendar)

There seems to be a bit of a theme on these threads where posters who can't flex their time seem to hate that others can, and will argue relentlessly about how much they're taking the piss by putting the bins out on company time.

I wouldn't go around telling a nursery worker how to do their job as I have no experience in that field, so it baffles me that people with no experience of flexi roles come on and act the way they do.

Happens every time these threads come up!

It's so job dependent

Like I'm paid to be at my desk so while I can go to the toilet and make a coffee (while it's monitored) I can't go to the shop or something. My maximum time between breaks is 3hrs usually

But my manager can because he's paid to do his job and so he will go to the shop for us etc and doesn't have set break or lunch times

In a senior job, you do need to still ask permission from your seniors.

As you see - the OP herself is in a senior job, and her manager is ringing her checking up on her.

You could also say why do people who can flex their time come onto a thread where the OP can't flex her time.

How is that helpful?

The point that you seem to be repeatedly missing is that the OP has stated that she

IS in a senior job and that she DOES need to get permission to go for unauthorised breaks

This is called micromanaging and its not a good reflection on any company.

I used to work for a big 4 finance company. We were entitled to 1 hour lunch but nobody ever took more than 20 minutes. On my notice period, I decided to take what I was entitled to. The first day I did this, I got a call 40 minutes in asking where I was.

I moved to a new smaller company who honestly couldn't care. I have already told them that I dont take a full hour lunch and often work an additional hour to make up for school runs etc.

I mean if I asked my boss for permission to leave my desk for 10 minutes he would think I had gone completely mad. If I kept doing it I actually think it might be a performance issue for me as it’s wasting his time and bothering him unnecessarily!

Equally if I put a claim in for overtime every time I worked beyond my contacted hours, or insisted on x mins for lunch he would also think I’d gone mad.

You’re either on the clock or not- works both ways.

No you don’t - I’m in a senior position and I dont ask my director for permission for a break or leave my desk/house whatever - he’d find it very strange if I did start asking and probably respond with ‘why are you asking me?’

Back in the day I used to get the train with a lady whose boss was based in a different office to her. Her boss required her to email her when she arrived, and email her just before she shut down her computer to leave for the day.

The way some people treat grown adults in the workplace is quite extraordinary.

Yes, agreed. I am not even in a very senior position but my boss would think I was bonkers if I sent him a Teams message every time I wanted to leave my desk to get a cup of coffee!

I feel like the more people put up with this, the more some managers will do it, its a) a massive waste of time b) sign of poor management c) toxic workplace - we’re not in school, we’re adults who have earned the right to autonomy

Yes!!! I honestly think my boss would think I was suffering from some sort of breakdown 🤣 also think it would be incredibly annoying to be constantly messaged asking if I could take a break

Yes my boss manages about 40 people! Can you imagine the teams traffic this would cause!

Right I'll rephrase it.

I didn't mean that all senior jobs need to ask permission.

I meant - you can see that the OP is in a senior job, and does need to ask permission.

So obviously in some senior jobs, you do need to ask for permission

Lets use an example comparable to the OPs.

She didnt just pop to the kitchen for five minuted.

What if you went to the cafe down the road to work, and your laptop battery died And you were offline for thirty minutes.

Would you have to let anyone know?

Nope!

Hmm. I would definitely get a message asking what happened.

Like the OP did.

No job is ever going to be 100 percent the same as the other.

That's why it's important to check with your employer before you do things.

I've seen posters on here before saying that they worked in a flexible job, where no one cared what they did during the day

Then they moved to a new job, and assumed they could do the same thing, and nearly got fired for it