To wonder (thinking about this awful French rape case) if humans are just rotten

[OptimismvsRealism]

It wasn't just the husband - at least 80 men went along with this. Guys with ordinary lives drawn out of nowhere.

I wonder if it would be better if we were to just wind things up as a species.

You'll find a handful of them across decades, all of them notorious due to their rarity.

With men, you'll find that same handful by looking at news reports for the last few weeks. And that won't include the ones that didn't even make the news because they are just so bloody common.

It is not the same.

Look until we stop breeding and adding to the population this will continue. Men don't spring up out of the ground you know.

We are as a species perpetuating the cycle.

Yes. It seems as though women are only as safe as their male partner allows them to be 🙁

I remember a couple of years ago speaking with a French anti-pornography campaigner. There is a type of pornography, apparently originating from Japan but now spread across the world, where a women is place alone in a warehouse and an invite is sent out for up to 50 or so men to come and sexually assault her. These are just ordinary men, who take up the opportunity, when it is presented to them. They are all in the warehouse with her at once and each of them ejaculates over her face. |One female victim reported how she was crying during it but the tears had no-one to go due to the amount of these men's sperm on her face. The French campaigner was managing to pursue convictions for rape in one of these cases as the police did a raid and took all the video footage before it was edited which included footage of the woman begging before hand and saying she was too scared and didn't want to go through with it. They also had footage of the men before they put their masks on (they wear masks to avoid identification in the footage put on porn sites). One was very prominent in the local Communist party. You know, that party that is all about equality and solidarity and all that.

There are a lot more awful men than we would like to think, when the opportunity presents itself. But surely we know this. Violent misogynistic pornography would not have become mainstream unless most men enjoy the idea of raping and hurting women.

I have a friend who was almost raped (decades ago) by male schoolfriends when she was a school girl. They knocked her to the ground and starting to assault her and only stopped when she started to cry. That made them wake up and apologise and go away. I don't think boys would do that now. Porn has trained young men to be aroused by women crying, to normalise this in sexual encounters. When I first read about the phenomena of young men getting erections in (non-sexual situations) where their girlfriend was crying, I mentioned this to a group of women and several of the young women said, ' yep, I've had this with a boyfriend.

What about their fathers? They do not learn this pattern of male behaviour from women who do not themselves model it. They learn it from other men.

Indeed. I recall reading years ago a report about women who were trafficked for sex. Some male perpetrators were interviewed and one said that he went into the room- saw the woman was handcuffed to the bed and sobbing and so in order to minimise her distress he did his business quickly and left.

he seemed to think he was a good guy.

I wish I can recall the details of the article- I think it was in the Guardian, and was a good period of time ago. Maybe 5-8 years? If it rings a bell with anyone?

The trick is to ignore them. Mumsnetters who insist on arguing with them and getting the last word in are encouraging them.

For the love of God! EVERY TIME on these threads where we try and discuss males, as a sex class, being horrible cunts, we get the ‘but there are terrible women too, not all men’.

No one is saying it’s all men! It’s too many men though. Of the horrific crimes committed it’s almost always by a man. Not all men are rapists but all rapists are men. Focus
on that.

Jesus, that's horrific. There aren't any words.

This.

one thing that really upsets me (as a woman who has been abused by female family member and, seen other mothers abuse their kids and get away with it, and someone who knows other victims of female perpetrators,) is that our stories of abuse at the hands of women are almost always minimised and dismissed by other women who say ‘it’s always men’

this case is extreme, there are (yes more rare) extreme stories of revolting abuse by women and female organisations. Obviously the majority of abuse is perpetrated by men but the narrative that it is always man is deeply disrespectful to the victims of female perpetrators and I find it so offensive and hurtful

@WheresMySupportCat I recall the same interviews, I think you're right that it was in the Guardian.

Oh come off it, no one is suggesting that NO women commit acts of abuse, of course they do!

But rape is always committed by a man - so are most violent attacks

No, not all rapists are men.

You're not being unreasonable, but you're not 100% accurate. Not humans - just men. Women aren't saints either, but most men are savages underneath. Some hide it better than others. Looking at that French thing's photo, you would never guess the cruelty and depravity behind the pleasant, ordinary-looking face. If women knew what men really thought about them, they would never agree to have sex with them, let alone bear their children. Men have evolved to be deceitful, or to form societies, like Islamic states, where they don't have to hide their true natures. Paedophilia and abuse of women is baked in.

Gosh thanks for your thoughtful and compassionate response.

Moumita Debnath - the female doctor in India who was gang-raped and murdered - was trending in India after her death. Vast numbera of men were hoping that her rapists had made a video of her rape and death and posted it so they could masturbate to it. I genuinely don't know what we can do about it. The utter depravity, and it feels like "the good guys" are too busy taking it as an attack on them when we try to talk about MVAWG.

No, not all rapists are men

In the U.K., they are. The definition of rape in U.K. law is penetration with a penis.

I'm so glad you do so it's not just my imagination. That bit just stuck with me as it was so horrific.

Yes they are. For a woman to be convicted of rape it involves assisting a penis. Guess who has them?

I can't believe it, to be honest. Not one of those men went .. hang on this is sick/illegal/horrendous etc and even bothered to make an anonymous phone call to police.
He was caught for a different offence

I have no words really

How sad.

I was thinking about an abusive guy I dated briefly in my early 20s and how all his male friends who were my friends too didn’t say anything to warn me, until after I discovered he was unhinged and then it was all “come on it’s obvious that guy is crazy etc” and other victim blaming.

They really don’t call each other out enough.

I feel unless you’re married or related to a man they will often turn a blind eye to other mens abusive behaviour towards you.

No.

No we don't need to blame women for the actions of men.

Let's look to a patriarchal society that excuses and allows men to be predators.

Let's look to their father's and the other men in their lives.

Lets look at the media and Hollywood.

The UN predicts it wi be at least 300 years before we achieve gender equality. The actions of men in this world (a world designed for them and their needs) are NOT our responsibility.

The internet and porn has unleashed the monster hidden in many men

I used to think men like this were rare. But as I’ve grown up I’ve discovered that many men in my wider circle are monsters… the quiet male friend in school who was so sweet to everyone is in prison for 10 years for paedophillia. My friend’s cousin was murdered by her husband. My childhood priest is a convicted paedophile. Everyone I know who has done jury service have all been subjected to harrowing evidence of child sexual abuse. Huw Edwards presided over all the important public events in our country and in secret was a sick pervert.

ALL the perpetrators are men. I pray I’m not called up for jury service. I could not cope.

I refuse to let my children go on sleepovers. I don’t trust anyone with my children’s safety. All men are potentially predators. I only trust my husband, dad and brother… and if there was ever an inkling of suspicion I would act immediately to protect my kids.

The internet has made the world very unsafe for women and children.