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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be so fucking angry. How many more women and children must die?

778 replies

Kianai · 21/08/2024 15:40

I'd almost become numb to it, with all the news so far this year.

Murder after murder of women and their children. Noone ever seeming to link the common denominator. NAMALT.

This latest one today, I feel like something is beginning to snap inside me. Three babies and a young woman dead, because of a fucking man. Again. And again.

news.sky.com/story/police-launch-murder-investigation-after-woman-and-three-children-die-in-house-fire-in-bradford-13200678

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 21:43

Blaming women complaining for things like Andrew Tate seems to be the worst kind of victim blaming "step out of line and we'll really put you in your place".

XChrome · 01/09/2024 21:45

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 21:23

Fair enough.

I guess I just find it a bit tiresome seeing predominantly white middle class women hand wringing over the extremely unlikely possibility they might be murdered when there are so many less privileged demographics out there and so many more logical things to worry about.

I hate to say it but it sometimes just seems so self obsessed. A means to play victim and say "oh, when will they leave us alone and stop killing us". I mean, stating the obvious but none of the women saying this have ever been murdered.

I'm not saying this to be offensive, I'm just the sort of person to get on with it and try and look on the bright side and find these types a bit tiresome. And I don't think they actually help. Continually generalising and demonising men just makes them switch off. I honestly feel it contributes to the rise of people like Andrew Tate who tell them it's OK to be proud to be male etc.

Exactly how do you know the race and financial status of people in this thread?
You're making excuses for yourself again.
Blaming women for Andrew Tate is ridiculous. You think equally vile misogynists didn't exist before him, it's only the rise of "white feminism" that has created that?
What actually creates scum like that is an abusive, misogynistic environment. They grow up watching men abuse women and internalize those attitudes. Internet porn is a factor with modern misogyny as well.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 21:48

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 21:43

Blaming women complaining for things like Andrew Tate seems to be the worst kind of victim blaming "step out of line and we'll really put you in your place".

Yes, it has an element of implied threat to it.
The passive aggression is strong.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:01

XChrome · 01/09/2024 21:37

Huh? The deleted posts seem to be from a single poster and most of the posts are supportive, yet you are claiming there is a gang of "feminist section regulars" attacking this woman? This is an odd takeaway from what appears to be just typical squabbling on the internet. Do you have any idea how many times multiple people try to bully another person on a thread? If I took that as being representative of MN (or one area of MN) in particular, I'd never post here again, because it's happened to me a number of times, worse than being called a man and told to fuck off. There are assholes everywhere and if that's your idea of a shocking example of online bullying, I envy your lack of experience with assholes. I've had my life threatened online more times than I care to remember.
Seems to be an example of confirmation bias.

Are you sure you read the same thread? Quite a few posters literary said "I don't know why you're being given such a hard time, OP".

You can try and downplay it but the thread is there for everyone to see with their own eyes.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 22:08

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:01

Are you sure you read the same thread? Quite a few posters literary said "I don't know why you're being given such a hard time, OP".

You can try and downplay it but the thread is there for everyone to see with their own eyes.

Yes, I saw that. I assume they meant the "fuck off" poster, who also said other things which have been deleted.
Be specific. Other than the fuck off poster, who exactly are you talking about?

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:24

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 21:43

Blaming women complaining for things like Andrew Tate seems to be the worst kind of victim blaming "step out of line and we'll really put you in your place".

But study after study shows that most women don't agree with modern feminism, mentioning such reasons as 'man hating'. Yes, men being more violent than us is a real societal issue but feminists try and make it all about themselves and this doesn't help IMO.

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men". Pretty sure I've even seen that old favourite on this thread. And if you challenge it you're 'a man' or 'an MRA'.

People on here like to push the trope that it's usually gang violence or 'drunken men fighting outside pubs' but that just isn't true. Look at the lad who was killed at the tube station the other day. Loads of examples like that. Another guy in a wheelchair was stabbed to death only last week and a 13 year old boy was fatally stabbed near me a couple of days ago. You'll never hear anything about this in the same way you would if it was a 13 year old girl. Are we really going to say it was his own fault as a child barely into his teens? And these are just random examples off the top of my head. There are likely loads more.

This kind of stuff is what makes men resentful. Not only having their issues ignored but then being told that as a man they have to shut up and listen to lectures on how bad women have it in spite of actually being much more likely to be killed themselves.

Feminists seem totally blinkered to this and I do wonder if it's because so many of them are white middle class graduates who never really get exposed to the demographics that carry knives etc. It's all arguing on twitter for them, not worrying that their own son might get stabbed.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:27

XChrome · 01/09/2024 22:08

Yes, I saw that. I assume they meant the "fuck off" poster, who also said other things which have been deleted.
Be specific. Other than the fuck off poster, who exactly are you talking about?

Go and read the first few pages of the thread again. I'm not here to educate you. If you can't see what I'm referring to it's probably because you're being wilfully ignorant or share the same mindset as the posters being rude to the OP.

Thelnebriati · 01/09/2024 22:44

What's stopping men campaigning against male violence? If only they would step up.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 22:46

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:24

But study after study shows that most women don't agree with modern feminism, mentioning such reasons as 'man hating'. Yes, men being more violent than us is a real societal issue but feminists try and make it all about themselves and this doesn't help IMO.

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men". Pretty sure I've even seen that old favourite on this thread. And if you challenge it you're 'a man' or 'an MRA'.

People on here like to push the trope that it's usually gang violence or 'drunken men fighting outside pubs' but that just isn't true. Look at the lad who was killed at the tube station the other day. Loads of examples like that. Another guy in a wheelchair was stabbed to death only last week and a 13 year old boy was fatally stabbed near me a couple of days ago. You'll never hear anything about this in the same way you would if it was a 13 year old girl. Are we really going to say it was his own fault as a child barely into his teens? And these are just random examples off the top of my head. There are likely loads more.

This kind of stuff is what makes men resentful. Not only having their issues ignored but then being told that as a man they have to shut up and listen to lectures on how bad women have it in spite of actually being much more likely to be killed themselves.

Feminists seem totally blinkered to this and I do wonder if it's because so many of them are white middle class graduates who never really get exposed to the demographics that carry knives etc. It's all arguing on twitter for them, not worrying that their own son might get stabbed.

Edited

I think that you are right that male violence is a very big problem for men too. But it is a different sort of problem (I think this is probably the wrong place to analyse that claim), and I don't think it unreasonable that a women's forum should look at male violence from a female perspective. And I really don't think day to day fear of violence is confined to feminist theorists. And actually more extreme anti-men ideas have hardly been mentioned on this thread at all!

When it comes to solutions to violence clearly men and women have to be involved, but why use this thread to criticise white middle-class feminists? You can't separate male violence from pervasive (affecting men and women, and most of us) ideas of masculinity.

This thread is revealing in that it shows what many (obviously not all) women feel in everyday day life, and I don't think many of them are feminists inventing their fears to make a political point.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:05

Thelnebriati · 01/09/2024 22:44

What's stopping men campaigning against male violence? If only they would step up.

Why is it any less the mother's responsibility than the father's if a teenage boy is taking a knife out the draw every time he goes out?

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 23:17

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 21:23

Fair enough.

I guess I just find it a bit tiresome seeing predominantly white middle class women hand wringing over the extremely unlikely possibility they might be murdered when there are so many less privileged demographics out there and so many more logical things to worry about.

I hate to say it but it sometimes just seems so self obsessed. A means to play victim and say "oh, when will they leave us alone and stop killing us". I mean, stating the obvious but none of the women saying this have ever been murdered.

I'm not saying this to be offensive, I'm just the sort of person to get on with it and try and look on the bright side and find these types a bit tiresome. And I don't think they actually help. Continually generalising and demonising men just makes them switch off. I honestly feel it contributes to the rise of people like Andrew Tate who tell them it's OK to be proud to be male etc.

I'm white but I'm most definitely not middle class. Im also not really coming at this from a feminist view point. As you say there are many less privileged demographics and I feel as a woman it's my duty to use my voice as and when I can. This includes speaking up for those women who perhaps aren't confident enough to speak out or can't articulate why they feel the way they do but they know something is wrong.

I'm not hand wringing and playing the victim I'm enraged at the men who hurt others and I won't stop pointing out that 99.9 % of the time when we hear another woman has died it is at the hands of a man.

No I've never been murdered but every day I read about women and children who are. Or women and children who are sexually assaulted and harmed by the men in their lives. This includes middle class women.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 23:21

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:24

But study after study shows that most women don't agree with modern feminism, mentioning such reasons as 'man hating'. Yes, men being more violent than us is a real societal issue but feminists try and make it all about themselves and this doesn't help IMO.

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men". Pretty sure I've even seen that old favourite on this thread. And if you challenge it you're 'a man' or 'an MRA'.

People on here like to push the trope that it's usually gang violence or 'drunken men fighting outside pubs' but that just isn't true. Look at the lad who was killed at the tube station the other day. Loads of examples like that. Another guy in a wheelchair was stabbed to death only last week and a 13 year old boy was fatally stabbed near me a couple of days ago. You'll never hear anything about this in the same way you would if it was a 13 year old girl. Are we really going to say it was his own fault as a child barely into his teens? And these are just random examples off the top of my head. There are likely loads more.

This kind of stuff is what makes men resentful. Not only having their issues ignored but then being told that as a man they have to shut up and listen to lectures on how bad women have it in spite of actually being much more likely to be killed themselves.

Feminists seem totally blinkered to this and I do wonder if it's because so many of them are white middle class graduates who never really get exposed to the demographics that carry knives etc. It's all arguing on twitter for them, not worrying that their own son might get stabbed.

Edited

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men"

But it is men.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:42

Going back to my earlier point, one of my main criticisms with a lot of garden variety modern feminism is that it completely lacks the nuance necessary to tackle these issues. The cynical side of me speculates that it's because many aren't actually so concerned with actually helping solving it as they are with moaning about men (which is much easier to do when you lump them all together rather than focus on specific demographics of men).

When you reduce it to 'male violence' you lose the nuance by putting it on all men. The fact that is always lost is that, despite male violence always being committed by men, it's isn't always perpetrated by the same demographic.

A white accountant from Kensington likely wouldn't know where to start in tackling honour killings in insular Muslim communities in Rotherham. It's nothing to do with him despite being male. In this situation it makes more sense to somehow reach the young males (given that it's often brothers/cousins doing the killing) and it's unlikely they'll listen to some white Christian bloke. In many cases the victims are also let down by the authorities - I remember one of the more recent ones had contacted them several times before she was murdered. And I'd bet those authorities weren't solely staffed by men, probably quite the opposite being a service for vulnerable women.

But what paticularly irks me is that it's not just a case of ignoring the nuance, but in many cases being actively reductive by saying things like "honour killings, spousal murder....meh, it's all male violence". This IMO is actively damaging the process of helping these women because it takes the nuance away in cases where it's particularly vital that a strategic approach is taken.

Another case that sticks is my mind is the Land Rover employee who was fatally stabbed in an Asda not too far from me. He was a middle aged family man who had challenged some teenage lads that were pissing on the floor and banging on cubicle doors. So much for speaking up, eh. He'd probably have been less likely to have been stabbed as a female.

No doubt the above case will be lumped in with general 'male violence' that men need to tackle, but what the fuck was going on at home that these young teens were taking knives out the house and even considered stabbing an adult that told them off? Statistically, most knives carried by teens are the standard kitchen type so I think in these cases the parents are more obliged to act than the average bloke on the street like the one they killed (obv allowing for the fact that parents can't always control their teenagers).

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:46

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 23:21

In reality, men suffer the worst but feminists will often try and dismiss this by saying "oh, but who's doing the killing.... it's men"

But it is men.

But it's not the victim's fault that he shares the same sex as his attacker. That's like men saying "oh, well it was her own husband/family that killed her, nothing to do with us".

As I said above, it's more nuanced IMO. A gay/ethnic male beaten to death by homophobic/racist thugs likely has much less in common with them than he does with other demographics/communities despite sharing the same sex.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:49

I guess part of my point is that continually saying "oh, it's always men" and then using this as a tool to implicate all men (because we can't tell which are the good ones innit) just doesn't really help anyone and just obfuscates the more complex factors. It's quite frankly not enough.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 23:52

Literally nobody is saying it's the victim's fault.

But it is men. Men from all walks of life committing violence towards children/women/ men from all walks of life. The context of the violence might change depending on cultures, class, situation etc. but it is men being violent.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 23:54

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:49

I guess part of my point is that continually saying "oh, it's always men" and then using this as a tool to implicate all men (because we can't tell which are the good ones innit) just doesn't really help anyone and just obfuscates the more complex factors. It's quite frankly not enough.

It is clearly not enough. But I do think we have to change how we bring up all boys and what we expect from all men as part of the solution. As well as much more specific work on the particular sorts of problems in particular situations you mention.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:54

Maybe I haven't been clear, but I'm not saying I want feminists to shut up. I'm saying I'm sick of hearing them whinging and spouting the same old soundbites rather than actually doing anything helpful. Obv 'not all feminists' as there are some that actually walk the walk, but far too many just come across as misanthropes that love complaining.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 23:56

Men who identify as not men will use male violence as a reason they don't want to use male only spaces. So even the men are saying "it's the men".

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:56

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 23:54

It is clearly not enough. But I do think we have to change how we bring up all boys and what we expect from all men as part of the solution. As well as much more specific work on the particular sorts of problems in particular situations you mention.

Well, I can agree with that but it's not the majority of what you hear on this forum. Most people don't really seem to want to look below the surface.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 23:59

I feel part of what puts me off is that so much modern feminism is theoretical and talky rather than actually practical, or even examining practical solutions (obv realistic ones not male curfews).

Thelnebriati · 02/09/2024 00:22

We tried practical solutions - rape crisis and DV shelters. Men complained about being expected to pay for them when they couldn't use them.
Women can't fix violent or broken men. Men need to step up now.

XChrome · 02/09/2024 00:37

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 22:27

Go and read the first few pages of the thread again. I'm not here to educate you. If you can't see what I'm referring to it's probably because you're being wilfully ignorant or share the same mindset as the posters being rude to the OP.

IOW, you cannot support your accusations that there was some "feminist section" gang attack on this woman, because it didn't happen. That's what I thought.
So now you just make more unsupportable accusations against me instead of backing up your statements.

XChrome · 02/09/2024 00:44

Example of a disingenuous pattern of posting;

"I'm leaving this thread and will not be responding further."

Later, after returning to the thread and posting in the exact same broken record vein, it's; "I'm sorry for derailing the thread."

This is followed by approximately fifteen thousand further derailing posts exactly like all the other derailing posts.

WotsYourExcuse · 02/09/2024 19:47

XChrome · 02/09/2024 00:37

IOW, you cannot support your accusations that there was some "feminist section" gang attack on this woman, because it didn't happen. That's what I thought.
So now you just make more unsupportable accusations against me instead of backing up your statements.

Christ, it's a bit like arguing with a holocaust denier who refuses to accept that certain things happened, despite incontrovertible evidence being provided. This is one thing that annoys me about a lot of modern feminists (and identity politics people). The sheer intellectual dishonesty.

Traditionally, people would debate and state that whilst they understand each other's points they simply don't agree. However, I see a modern trend of asking for 'proof' and then completely refusing to accept it even when provided.

I used to think it was bonkers as any normal person would recognise the evidence, but then I realised that the reason they do it is because they know that not everybody will actually read the links, so when they say "you still haven't provided proof" some people will actually believe this as they haven't been arsed to actually read the provided data. It's basically bluffing.

Anyhow, I didn't want to subject everybody to me posting quotes from said thread, but if you're going to accuse me of making 'unsupportable accusations' I guess I feel obliged to.