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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be so fucking angry. How many more women and children must die?

778 replies

Kianai · 21/08/2024 15:40

I'd almost become numb to it, with all the news so far this year.

Murder after murder of women and their children. Noone ever seeming to link the common denominator. NAMALT.

This latest one today, I feel like something is beginning to snap inside me. Three babies and a young woman dead, because of a fucking man. Again. And again.

news.sky.com/story/police-launch-murder-investigation-after-woman-and-three-children-die-in-house-fire-in-bradford-13200678

OP posts:
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21
XChrome · 01/09/2024 01:11

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 00:43

3.3% of the population was sexually assaulted in 2022. Which means 96.7% were not, darling.

People on here always say it's 1 in 4 women. Where's that statistic from? 1 in 4 is 25% not 3.3%.

25% is the lifetime rate, not the annual rate. The annual rate tells you nothing but whether or not it's up or down from the prior year. The true rate is much higher due to lack of reporting anyway. Since only 16-40% get reported, you do the math. It's obviously much higher.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 01:54

XChrome · 01/09/2024 01:11

25% is the lifetime rate, not the annual rate. The annual rate tells you nothing but whether or not it's up or down from the prior year. The true rate is much higher due to lack of reporting anyway. Since only 16-40% get reported, you do the math. It's obviously much higher.

But that's the same argument mentioned earlier about men not reporting DV for fear of being seen as being weak. The government crime stats give a much lower figure than the thousands of surveys but people on here usually seem to want to dismiss those studies and focus on the government stats because otherwise they don't like the implications.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 03:11

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 01:54

But that's the same argument mentioned earlier about men not reporting DV for fear of being seen as being weak. The government crime stats give a much lower figure than the thousands of surveys but people on here usually seem to want to dismiss those studies and focus on the government stats because otherwise they don't like the implications.

Nobody is dismissing your beloved studies FFS. People would have to give a shit about them to do that. I would say that nobody (except for one other person) gives a shit because this thread happens to be about what women face, not what men face. Why don't you just start your own thread on the alleged horrors men have to deal with instead of engaging in whataboutism and derailing this thread.
Can't women have anything that's just for us and about us, not even a thread about violence against women?
Learn to read a room.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 03:58

XChrome · 01/09/2024 03:11

Nobody is dismissing your beloved studies FFS. People would have to give a shit about them to do that. I would say that nobody (except for one other person) gives a shit because this thread happens to be about what women face, not what men face. Why don't you just start your own thread on the alleged horrors men have to deal with instead of engaging in whataboutism and derailing this thread.
Can't women have anything that's just for us and about us, not even a thread about violence against women?
Learn to read a room.

Very good point. We can't even have a thread for ourselves these days.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 04:08

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 03:58

Very good point. We can't even have a thread for ourselves these days.

Yep. It's ridiculous that anyone would respond to all these awful stories women are telling of their experiences with violence against women by saying; "But what about men? Look at this study bla bla bla." That shows no trace of empathy or respect for how brave these women are to talk about it. It's appalling and it happens all the damn time.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 05:07

XChrome · 01/09/2024 04:08

Yep. It's ridiculous that anyone would respond to all these awful stories women are telling of their experiences with violence against women by saying; "But what about men? Look at this study bla bla bla." That shows no trace of empathy or respect for how brave these women are to talk about it. It's appalling and it happens all the damn time.

It never takes long for the NAMALT's to come out. And those saying but my husband/son/Dad is a good man he would never hurt a woman. Because rapists and murderers don't have female relatives of course.

As you said they can start a thread about violence against men if the feel so strongly about it.

Annanirvana · 01/09/2024 07:13

WotsYourExcuse , State your sources for these ridiculous rape " statistics". Rape/SA are the most underreported crimes, so no one knows the real numbers. It is estimated that 1/10 is actually reported.

beguilingeyes · 01/09/2024 10:26

This is what often blows my mind about these cases. Rather than loner monsters in their bedsits, a lot of these people have families.
Wayne Couzens kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard and then calmly went home to his wife and children.

LOUKAP · 01/09/2024 10:45

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 00:43

3.3% of the population was sexually assaulted in 2022. Which means 96.7% were not, darling.

People on here always say it's 1 in 4 women. Where's that statistic from? 1 in 4 is 25% not 3.3%.

Maybe that should read only 3.3% of sexual assaults are reported the rest go unreported due to stigma or lack of action.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 11:00

beguilingeyes · 01/09/2024 10:26

This is what often blows my mind about these cases. Rather than loner monsters in their bedsits, a lot of these people have families.
Wayne Couzens kidnapped, raped and murdered Sarah Everard and then calmly went home to his wife and children.

Me too. That's why I get so frustrated with the Not my Nigel stuff. We don't know what the men in our lives are capable of.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 11:00

XChrome · 01/09/2024 03:11

Nobody is dismissing your beloved studies FFS. People would have to give a shit about them to do that. I would say that nobody (except for one other person) gives a shit because this thread happens to be about what women face, not what men face. Why don't you just start your own thread on the alleged horrors men have to deal with instead of engaging in whataboutism and derailing this thread.
Can't women have anything that's just for us and about us, not even a thread about violence against women?
Learn to read a room.

You're not just wanting to have a thread 'that's just for us and about us'. You want to demonise half the population because of the actions of a tiny minority and have nobody challenge you on it.

If somebody started a thread on here about how men were the majority victims of violence and DV you can bet they wouldn't be allowed to have a thread 'just for us and about us'. You lot would be in there in a flash. You need to read the room and realise that the vast majority of women don't like this divisive rhetoric. Not when it's being used to try and make broad statements about all men, the majority of whom are normal people.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 11:13

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 11:00

You're not just wanting to have a thread 'that's just for us and about us'. You want to demonise half the population because of the actions of a tiny minority and have nobody challenge you on it.

If somebody started a thread on here about how men were the majority victims of violence and DV you can bet they wouldn't be allowed to have a thread 'just for us and about us'. You lot would be in there in a flash. You need to read the room and realise that the vast majority of women don't like this divisive rhetoric. Not when it's being used to try and make broad statements about all men, the majority of whom are normal people.

Nobody is saying that all men are violent or sexual predators. The point is 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. We can't tell the good men from the creepy men from the sexual predators just by looking. Did Wayne Couzens wife know she was living with a violent sexual predator or did she think he was just a normal man. I don't go about my life terrified of men but I do know that if my husband decided to murder me I wouldn't stand a chance. I also know that I'd rather walk past a woman than a man on a dark street and be alone on a bus with a woman than a man. I also know that if a man puts a wig on and calls himself Deirdre he's still a man and has no place in women's single sex spaces.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 11:37

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 11:13

Nobody is saying that all men are violent or sexual predators. The point is 98% of sexual violence is perpetrated by men. We can't tell the good men from the creepy men from the sexual predators just by looking. Did Wayne Couzens wife know she was living with a violent sexual predator or did she think he was just a normal man. I don't go about my life terrified of men but I do know that if my husband decided to murder me I wouldn't stand a chance. I also know that I'd rather walk past a woman than a man on a dark street and be alone on a bus with a woman than a man. I also know that if a man puts a wig on and calls himself Deirdre he's still a man and has no place in women's single sex spaces.

I can't disagree with most of your points but a lot of women on here do go about their lives terrified of men. There's a current thread on here discussing a male curfew lol.

Imagine if people started saying that women should have their newborn children removed until proven they weren't a risk to them, given that most child abuse/murder is perpetrated by the mother and we can't tell the good from the bad ones.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 15:13

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 11:37

I can't disagree with most of your points but a lot of women on here do go about their lives terrified of men. There's a current thread on here discussing a male curfew lol.

Imagine if people started saying that women should have their newborn children removed until proven they weren't a risk to them, given that most child abuse/murder is perpetrated by the mother and we can't tell the good from the bad ones.

I think women have different experiences and if a woman has been assaulted by a man then it's understandable that she may be more scared around men than other women. That's the point that most men are good but we can't tell just by looking. We can't even trust that police officers won't rape and murderer us now (yes I know most won't but I'm sure Sarah Everard thought that too). The male curfew thread is nonsense in my opinion. I think it started out as a thought experiment now there's pages of people saying "but what if my husband had a stroke can he not go to the hospital". I do think it's a scary thought that more women would be harmed by the men in their life's if men did have to stay at home though. We saw this during COVID.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're making with mothers and children. If a child is thought to be at risk social services will monitor the situation and there are cases when a baby is removed from a mother after birth if that's deemed the safest action. Men are quite free to crack on and live their lives I ask that they stay out of female only spaces and stop sexually assaulting and being violent towards women and children though. If they want to beat each other senseless on the street then they can crack on with that too. Or perhaps they could acknowledge that male violence is a problem and collectively look into ways of understanding and solving that.

It really frustrates me when women on here point out that all the men in their family are good guys and they'd never harm a woman. It know it's an unpopular opinion but I do think there's a lot of men who on some subconscious level dislike women being independent and not subservient to them. Basically men who don't like to hear a woman say no. I'm not hysterical or petrified but this is something I see regularly.

asdfgasdfg · 01/09/2024 17:44

DH and I said "boyfriend" when we heard about that journalist's wife and two daughters being killed

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 19:03

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 15:13

I think women have different experiences and if a woman has been assaulted by a man then it's understandable that she may be more scared around men than other women. That's the point that most men are good but we can't tell just by looking. We can't even trust that police officers won't rape and murderer us now (yes I know most won't but I'm sure Sarah Everard thought that too). The male curfew thread is nonsense in my opinion. I think it started out as a thought experiment now there's pages of people saying "but what if my husband had a stroke can he not go to the hospital". I do think it's a scary thought that more women would be harmed by the men in their life's if men did have to stay at home though. We saw this during COVID.

I'm not sure I understand the comparison you're making with mothers and children. If a child is thought to be at risk social services will monitor the situation and there are cases when a baby is removed from a mother after birth if that's deemed the safest action. Men are quite free to crack on and live their lives I ask that they stay out of female only spaces and stop sexually assaulting and being violent towards women and children though. If they want to beat each other senseless on the street then they can crack on with that too. Or perhaps they could acknowledge that male violence is a problem and collectively look into ways of understanding and solving that.

It really frustrates me when women on here point out that all the men in their family are good guys and they'd never harm a woman. It know it's an unpopular opinion but I do think there's a lot of men who on some subconscious level dislike women being independent and not subservient to them. Basically men who don't like to hear a woman say no. I'm not hysterical or petrified but this is something I see regularly.

Thanks for taking the time to write a comprehensive reply.

I guess I just don't understand why some people obsessively focus on this area when there are so many other much more prominent risks. Like, you're much more likely to die driving to work and you can't tell which drivers are maybe still over the limit from a heavy night before.

I know some will see it as whataboutery but I think it's a fair point. The cynical side of me thinks that a lot of women just like an excuse to bash on men in a not dissimilar way to people that like to justify racist attitudes - e.g. every time there's a stabbing they say "oh, it's the future doctors and lawyers again" or banging on about millions spent on hotels for asylum seekers whilst pensioners have their winter fuel payments removed, etc. I think in many cases both parties likely believe their arguments and there may be some points in there to a degree.

Where it falls down for me is that the people always moaning about men never really seem to look at any other demographic/dynamic than male/female. Despite the majority of violence being committed by a minority of men, I don't see an innocent male as any more culpable than an innocent female or any less a victim. It's certainly not his fault because he was born male because that's almost like victim blaming/prejudice.

Another problem of only ever viewing issues from male/female perspectives is that it's just too broad. When we broaden the category to 'men' we can somehow implicate white financial accountants from Kensington in honour killings taking place in Muslim communities in Rotherham - it's male violence and they're men after all. Same with things like FGM that aren't white western practices.

Similarly, feminists can use the royal 'we' and talk about the things being done to 'us', when in reality a white middle class professional woman is extremely unlikely to ever have to worry about FGM. Not that it's not a wider societal issue that we should care about, but there are other dynamics at play. Race and religion are in many cases stronger identifiers than sex, and a black or Muslim woman will often feel more kinship with men of her own race/religion than with the white feminists who speak on her behalf using the royal 'we'.

You only have to look over to the Black Mumsnetters section to see the scathing indictments of 'white feminism'. That's why I'm always a bit hmm when it's always about male/female. It has its place in analytical theory but in many cases white women are as much the other as white men. So when white feminists get on their high horse about, for example, knife crime. When they start saying "oh, it's all male violence....men are the problem", they ignore important racial aspects like the role of white people in the root causes of the racial inequality we see today.

So when they start with the arguments that men as a group need to stand up and fix the problems their demographic contributed to, they ignore a lot other aspects like the issues their own demographics have contributed to - as white people, as privileged middle class people, etc. And often they absolutely don't want to address or acknowledge these other dynamics which is why we usually see such an indignant reaction to the slightest mention of white feminism.

This is only really scratching the surface but it's part of why myself and many others find the whole 'man = bad, woman = good' rhetoric so tiresome. Obv not all men and not all white feminists.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 19:11

I didn't always feel this way. I just gradually started getting this creeping feeling that a lot of modern white feminism is quite toxic.

I think one of the turning points was a thread on here by a WOC (a Muslim woman from memory). She basically said that she appreciated white feminists having used their voice/status to 'open the door' for the voice of women like her. However, she said she felt that they sometimes trangress in areas they don't understand, giving the example that some women are more comfortable wearing a hijab and it's not for western women to speak on their behalf.

The backlash was pretty shocking, much of it from regulars from the feminist section. She was called a man (that old chestnut) and literally told to 'fuck off'.

That was one of the things that really turned me away from white middle class feminism, which seems to be the majority, especiallyon here. It's almost like a power play at many times and this is never more obvious than when witnessing their reaction to women less privileged than themselves. At that stage many will absolutely refuse to acknowledge their own privilege as they expect others to do and will become extremely combative and hostile.

EDIT: This is the thread I was talking about. Really opened my eyes about the attitudes of a lot of people that claim to be feminists.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180396-Lets-Talk-about-White-Feminism?page=1

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 19:18

But apologies if I've derailed the topic a bit. Just trying to give a bit of an insight into why I feel many of us don't really identify with a lot of modern feminism.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 01/09/2024 20:09

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 19:18

But apologies if I've derailed the topic a bit. Just trying to give a bit of an insight into why I feel many of us don't really identify with a lot of modern feminism.

Fair enough. But I think the problem of domestic violence is a lot wider than just being an issue for feminists. And very common.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 21:00

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 11:00

Me too. That's why I get so frustrated with the Not my Nigel stuff. We don't know what the men in our lives are capable of.

That is the scary truth.

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 21:04

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 19:03

Thanks for taking the time to write a comprehensive reply.

I guess I just don't understand why some people obsessively focus on this area when there are so many other much more prominent risks. Like, you're much more likely to die driving to work and you can't tell which drivers are maybe still over the limit from a heavy night before.

I know some will see it as whataboutery but I think it's a fair point. The cynical side of me thinks that a lot of women just like an excuse to bash on men in a not dissimilar way to people that like to justify racist attitudes - e.g. every time there's a stabbing they say "oh, it's the future doctors and lawyers again" or banging on about millions spent on hotels for asylum seekers whilst pensioners have their winter fuel payments removed, etc. I think in many cases both parties likely believe their arguments and there may be some points in there to a degree.

Where it falls down for me is that the people always moaning about men never really seem to look at any other demographic/dynamic than male/female. Despite the majority of violence being committed by a minority of men, I don't see an innocent male as any more culpable than an innocent female or any less a victim. It's certainly not his fault because he was born male because that's almost like victim blaming/prejudice.

Another problem of only ever viewing issues from male/female perspectives is that it's just too broad. When we broaden the category to 'men' we can somehow implicate white financial accountants from Kensington in honour killings taking place in Muslim communities in Rotherham - it's male violence and they're men after all. Same with things like FGM that aren't white western practices.

Similarly, feminists can use the royal 'we' and talk about the things being done to 'us', when in reality a white middle class professional woman is extremely unlikely to ever have to worry about FGM. Not that it's not a wider societal issue that we should care about, but there are other dynamics at play. Race and religion are in many cases stronger identifiers than sex, and a black or Muslim woman will often feel more kinship with men of her own race/religion than with the white feminists who speak on her behalf using the royal 'we'.

You only have to look over to the Black Mumsnetters section to see the scathing indictments of 'white feminism'. That's why I'm always a bit hmm when it's always about male/female. It has its place in analytical theory but in many cases white women are as much the other as white men. So when white feminists get on their high horse about, for example, knife crime. When they start saying "oh, it's all male violence....men are the problem", they ignore important racial aspects like the role of white people in the root causes of the racial inequality we see today.

So when they start with the arguments that men as a group need to stand up and fix the problems their demographic contributed to, they ignore a lot other aspects like the issues their own demographics have contributed to - as white people, as privileged middle class people, etc. And often they absolutely don't want to address or acknowledge these other dynamics which is why we usually see such an indignant reaction to the slightest mention of white feminism.

This is only really scratching the surface but it's part of why myself and many others find the whole 'man = bad, woman = good' rhetoric so tiresome. Obv not all men and not all white feminists.

I understand what you're saying about risks. I don't have the numbers/evidence to hand but I think it's the case in the US that you are more likely to die from obesity related illnesses than you are from terrorist acts. Yet the US Government spends billions on defense when it's citizens don't have decent health care.

I get that violence against women and children is different in different parts of the world. I'd of course much rather be a woman in the UK than a woman in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Or a girl born into a family in the US than a family in Pakistan. I agree with you that this is a very complicated issue and feminism can mean different things depending on where you are in the world. For me the issue of male violence against women is that it's something that is done to us specifically because we are female. And often by men who know not to be violent towards other males.

I asked my husband what do the perpetrators of all these recent attacks on women and girls have in common? He was scratching his head asking are the Muslim, are they mentally unwell, are they loners? The answer is they are all men. From all walks of life, cultures, religions, classes and professions. Again I acknowledge that most men are not violent sexual predators but we are shown time and time again that there isn't a type and that is what I believe is the core of this issue for a lot of women.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 21:15

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 11:00

You're not just wanting to have a thread 'that's just for us and about us'. You want to demonise half the population because of the actions of a tiny minority and have nobody challenge you on it.

If somebody started a thread on here about how men were the majority victims of violence and DV you can bet they wouldn't be allowed to have a thread 'just for us and about us'. You lot would be in there in a flash. You need to read the room and realise that the vast majority of women don't like this divisive rhetoric. Not when it's being used to try and make broad statements about all men, the majority of whom are normal people.

Really? Can you back up those accusations with evidence? Quotes, for example?

I could throw a lot of silly "mind-reading" accusations about what you supposedly really want too, but I'm not twelve years old and don't pretend to be the Amazing Kreskin. You are the person who deliberately put your rants in a thread where women are describing terrible experiences, without any consideration to how nervous they might be speaking about it in an environment where they will be callously dismissed with "but what about men" and "you just hate men." One could draw some very nasty conclusions from that, but people here have tried to be fair and give you the benefit of the doubt. You're not making it easy. I suggest you clean your own house before you try to hurl mud at others. Passive aggression is not a good look.

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 21:23

Alucard55 · 01/09/2024 21:04

I understand what you're saying about risks. I don't have the numbers/evidence to hand but I think it's the case in the US that you are more likely to die from obesity related illnesses than you are from terrorist acts. Yet the US Government spends billions on defense when it's citizens don't have decent health care.

I get that violence against women and children is different in different parts of the world. I'd of course much rather be a woman in the UK than a woman in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Or a girl born into a family in the US than a family in Pakistan. I agree with you that this is a very complicated issue and feminism can mean different things depending on where you are in the world. For me the issue of male violence against women is that it's something that is done to us specifically because we are female. And often by men who know not to be violent towards other males.

I asked my husband what do the perpetrators of all these recent attacks on women and girls have in common? He was scratching his head asking are the Muslim, are they mentally unwell, are they loners? The answer is they are all men. From all walks of life, cultures, religions, classes and professions. Again I acknowledge that most men are not violent sexual predators but we are shown time and time again that there isn't a type and that is what I believe is the core of this issue for a lot of women.

Fair enough.

I guess I just find it a bit tiresome seeing predominantly white middle class women hand wringing over the extremely unlikely possibility they might be murdered when there are so many less privileged demographics out there and so many more logical things to worry about.

I hate to say it but it sometimes just seems so self obsessed. A means to play victim and say "oh, when will they leave us alone and stop killing us". I mean, stating the obvious but none of the women saying this have ever been murdered.

I'm not saying this to be offensive, I'm just the sort of person to get on with it and try and look on the bright side and find these types a bit tiresome. And I don't think they actually help. Continually generalising and demonising men just makes them switch off. I honestly feel it contributes to the rise of people like Andrew Tate who tell them it's OK to be proud to be male etc.

XChrome · 01/09/2024 21:37

WotsYourExcuse · 01/09/2024 19:11

I didn't always feel this way. I just gradually started getting this creeping feeling that a lot of modern white feminism is quite toxic.

I think one of the turning points was a thread on here by a WOC (a Muslim woman from memory). She basically said that she appreciated white feminists having used their voice/status to 'open the door' for the voice of women like her. However, she said she felt that they sometimes trangress in areas they don't understand, giving the example that some women are more comfortable wearing a hijab and it's not for western women to speak on their behalf.

The backlash was pretty shocking, much of it from regulars from the feminist section. She was called a man (that old chestnut) and literally told to 'fuck off'.

That was one of the things that really turned me away from white middle class feminism, which seems to be the majority, especiallyon here. It's almost like a power play at many times and this is never more obvious than when witnessing their reaction to women less privileged than themselves. At that stage many will absolutely refuse to acknowledge their own privilege as they expect others to do and will become extremely combative and hostile.

EDIT: This is the thread I was talking about. Really opened my eyes about the attitudes of a lot of people that claim to be feminists.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180396-Lets-Talk-about-White-Feminism?page=1

Edited

Huh? The deleted posts seem to be from a single poster and most of the posts are supportive, yet you are claiming there is a gang of "feminist section regulars" attacking this woman? This is an odd takeaway from what appears to be just typical squabbling on the internet. Do you have any idea how many times multiple people try to bully another person on a thread? If I took that as being representative of MN (or one area of MN) in particular, I'd never post here again, because it's happened to me a number of times, worse than being called a man and told to fuck off. There are assholes everywhere and if that's your idea of a shocking example of online bullying, I envy your lack of experience with assholes. I've had my life threatened online more times than I care to remember.
Seems to be an example of confirmation bias.