Contributions from (pensioner) MIL to household

[PaterPower]

My MIL has been living with my partner (her DD) and I for about 18 months.

When she first moved in, we set contributions at £400pm. She was still in the process of selling her property and had ongoing bills, so fair enough. She agreed at the time that her contribution would go up once the sale completed. That happened about 2 months ago.

We reminded her on Friday about the promise to up what she was paying. She’s declared that she “doesn’t agree” that she should, mainly based on my DP’s DD (her granddaughter, early 20s) paying less. We’re not charging my DSD much because she’s trying to save a deposit and she’s not on a massive salary (but does work FT).

My MIL’s £400 goes a long way. We cook for her, change her bed linen, provide support on admin tasks, take her to her (many) medical appointments, shopping trips when she wants to go out and it covers all her food, electricity, our additional heating costs etc - basically everything.

She has mobility issues and can no longer cook anything more than a microwave meal (and even that only with some help). She helps load and put the laundry on and she will help with loading and unloading the dishwasher on occasion. She’ll occasionally wipe down the kitchen tops. I don’t begrudge what she does and doesn’t do, just adding it for context.

Her regular income from various pensions is good - she’s not scraping around for money, particularly now that 99% of her monthly outgoings stopped with the sale of her property.

AIBU for asking for an increase in her payment to £600 pm?

Charge her more. If she lived elsewhere it would be a lot more expensive.

My uncle has just died meaning his dementia care home fees of £8K / month have finally ended.

Honestly, im more horrified and disgusted by your situation. Sounds like you've had to tell yourself a lot of lies to back up your martyr complex as you can't face the reality of what you put yourself through. You let a woman move into your home even though she treated you like dirt. You didn't outsmart her daughters, you were foolish. They got all the money and didn't have to run around and slave away for an unpleasant person. Your children would have known that their grandmother didn't like their mother and they would have seen you desperately trying to buy her affections. That's not a good environment for them. She didn't choose them, her daughters just didn't want her.

Agree both sides need to sit down and look at the costs on paper.

@PaterPower "We haven’t discussed what that would cost if provided by an external agency. Perhaps we should be blunt, but it feels mercenary as she’s family"

You've already shown your family care by taking her in. She's gone back on the originally agreed deal. It's like saying that your care is not worth as much as originally thought? You mentioned that her household bills alone added up to £600 a month. She can and should afford to pay her way. She is now well cared for, more healthy and living in a secure and familiar family environment.

All emotions aside. It is not sustainable for her to consciously leave your household out of pocket, given the time you are sacrificing out of your own lives and the high level of care you are providing. There is an unseen cost to all this care. It's not mercenary to show her what the alternative costs would be if you weren't there to provide it.

It's important that you both need to care for yourselves and your DC as well as MIL, because this is a long-term situation.

This has to be sustainable or it will cause resentment, because she is putting you through hurdles that don't need to exist, and that is not going to be a happy environment for anyone, particularly her. If she pays her way, and it doesn't sound like you are asking for an overpayment. you can all live together, without resentment. She could for eg, afford to get an occasional cleaner in to take up some of the extra chores. Things like this would provide that bit of easement that would make the situation easier and less time pressed for all of you.

Her attitude is that she doesn't want her nearest and dearest to benefit from her staying there, whilst not even acknowledging the benefits she gets from this.
I think some cost comparisons on paper of what was previously paid, what is now available as a result and what the household costs currently are might alleviate any worries she may have that she is being short changed by someone who in reality is subsidising her. For example, she's been there 18 months, during which we have had rising energy bills and a cost of living crisis.

From the sound of it, having struggled in early life, she is a bit afraid of finances running short. But it can be illustrated to her that they won't. Obviously do it in a kind, but a factual way. It is your DP's and DP's DSis role but I think you could probably help them as they may find it hard to talk finances to a parent.

Its a very good idea to make a plan going forward of how this is going to work so that you can all live happily together and it is all transparent. Eg for the next year at least in the first session. It might help her to see that the facts are available for her to consider and that you are all happy to answer any questions she has. Eg plan/suggest having someone to come in and help MIL if you want a weekend away or something. Plan a bit of extra help around the house. A cleaner for her areas of the house. An account with a friendly local Taxi firm so that she can come and go as and when she pleases without 100 percent relying on lifts from you or where and how she could have a holiday or day trips.
You are obviously doing a lot but don't let her become overly dependent on only you and DP, each side needs to retain a bit of their independence for this to be sustainable. Talk to Age Concern or similar, they must have come across this situation.
Hopefully she will see that you DP and Dsis are helping her to make workable plans for her future well being in an open transparent manner and that will reassure her and you. Best of luck

OP, I would not go into the realms of pointing out how much more alternative care arrangements would cost - at that point you run the risk of being accused of trying to profit from your MIL, particularly by those who do not understand how costs add up. I don't think you need to, actually.

By all means you can break down all the very real costs you face with her living with you, but I'd start by simply pointing out to her that £600 per month is less than £20 a day for all her food, housing, heating, water and transport costs (together with anything else you pay for). That is an absolute bargain in anybody's terms nowadays. Tell her what the rate of inflation has been over the last few years, and point out gas and electric costs will rise again from 1st October, and again in January. I'd also be setting the expectation that it will need to keep up with inflation in the future, just as her pension payments will rise, otherwise you'll face regular disagreements going forward. I suggest applying the annual rate of increase in her state pension for ease.

OP you have my respect and my sympathy, I did not move parents into my home but did get to a point where their care was taking the bulk of my time, mental energy and peace of mind. Had we done what you and your DP have done I would have seen nothing legally or morally wrong in expecting/accepting money from them. An additional adult significantly adds to the costs, fuel for heating and heating water, more washing to be done, more food and possibly different food. For you there will also be the cost of adaptations you have done and certainly a cost in petrol for driving her to appointments. You are both giving hugely in time and care so her contributing to the household costs is not to big an ask.
AA does not apply where PIP was in place before pension age, carers allowance is usually an income replacement benefit for someone caring so many hours that they cannot work full time. Might be worth going to your local CAB or an age related charity to see what is available locally in terms of day centres, lunch clubs etc. Would give you a break and maybe let her see how much she is getting just now.

Another thirty years of 'treasure'.🙄

Wow. No one in my family would charge their own mother for anything other than the actual monetary cost of having her there. Helping with admin, and feeding the woman who wiped your arse for the first two years of your life is just the decent thing to do. You don't treat providing this "service" as a side-hustle and charge extra for it.
If it's too much to deal with, then you can organise help and she can pay for it from her funds. It might be worth remembering that the more you charge her now, the less money she'll have available to pay for decent residential care when her needs get really significant.
I write this as someone who's has lost four older family members to dementia, I'm not unsympathetic to the stress it brings, but you need to separate the stress issue from the cash issue.

She may be thinking of that, yes, but this is not a gift so should not be a consideration in calculating Inheritance Tax if it is ever applicable..

It goes towards all the costs, rent, food, heating which would be considerably more if she had her own flat and carers coming in.

I agree that it's worth find out out what she thinks she may need the money for eg specialist care. Another way of looking at this is if she intends to her daughter or grandchild to o her it she could pay even more now for the service which would mean it wouldn't get taxed on her death. The money could be kept on a seperate account and used for her needs if this ends up being necessary .

I think you can get a discount on certain things like maybe council tax if you have a pensioner living with you.
Might also get priority call outs if there is an issue with the boiler/heating etc should look into all of those.
She may also be able to get someone to help her attend appointments etc all these things are available even taxis. You would need to look into it.
Maybe talk to a social worker or welfare rights local council can't quite remember now.
Might be worth looking into having an annex built.

My grandmother had carers coming daily and a hospital bed in her downstairs room when she became immobile. Her children helped and she managed to stay in her own home with care.. if you had an annex built she could pay for it if she needed carers she would be able to afford it plus you'd also be there to make sure she isn't abused. This way she would use her money on her own care and possibly help cover costs so it doesn't impact on your col.

Feel really sad for old people. They maybe took care of their children while the kids were little and now feels like they get discarded when they get old seeing some of these comments.

Also just because people don't like each other doesn't mean you are a mug for looking after someone! Just shows who the actual well adjusted adult is. Doesn't mean you are a doormat or have to be one!
Surely being an adult means being able to take care of each other when needed not just getting the hump and going no contact all the time.

If you can't afford to heat the place then let her know. If you can't afford the bills then she should be made aware of it so she can understand that things have become more expensive and will be more expensive when they yet again put the fuel prices up!

This thread just makes me hope I die before I get to the point of needing any help from anyone if this is the mindset we are getting to.
Helping out your children but not your parents is teaching your children how to treat you as well when you get to that age.

I agree with this too. We had my DM living with us part of the time and she insisted on contributing to food and the extra heating needed but the mortgage etc would have to be paid anyway. I wouldn't have dreamt of charging her for her care, in fact she used to get upset sometimes and say she hadn't had me to care for her in her old age.

If you are struggling financially, PaterPower please do investigate the possibility of your MIL being eligible for Attendance Allowance and you could then be able to claim Carer's allowance if you look after her for 35+ hours pw.

I’m not sure why you can’t charge extra for helping/ doing admin, driving her to appointments. Running a car isn’t free and there is an opportunity cost, loss of revenue from reduced working hours, less capacity for paid overtime ( also good luck getting a promotion at work whilst you are juggling caring responsibilities) as well as actual time spent. Time is often undervalued but it’s a precious and finite resource.

I think a better starting point would be to look at what costs could mil shoulder to help. A carer? A cleaner? A prepped meal service? I think looking after elderly relatives tends to take over your life whereas if you build in additional help at the start it’s easier to scale up as necessary. So often we wait for a crisis.

There are so many threads on here concerning elderly relatives who’ve needed looked after. People are often advised to tell social services they can not return and they can not provide care. This will be OP years down the line when they’ve run themselves ragged dealing with ever increasing care needs.

This.

Also consider Power of Attorney both financial & medical.

if she is saving all their money then when the time comes the care home will just take it all anyway.
the dementia might make her decision making about money difficult.
doesn’t matter what children pay to live there. They can take care of themselves.

do not put yourself in debt
and get partner to sort it out as it’s not your mum. What happens if your parents need support ?

£600 is a great deal. Tel her to find somewhere else and she will soon change her tune when she realises how much it will cost to live elsewhere. Or just tell her she needs to buy her own food and transport from now on.

OP, I think you probably need to butt out of this one. This is your partner's mother, not yours. Would you expect to charge your mother the going rate for accommodating and looking after her in her last years? I looked after my mum for her last years (sharing the work with my sister) and neither of us expected her to pay us because she was our MUM and she'd brought us up and sacrificed a lot for us when we were young. I wonder whether your partner feels the same way?

Oscar Wilde defined a cynic as: 'A man who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.' I'm getting those vibes here. I'm also getting some pretty uncomfortable 'I'm the man of the house, my DP's a wuss and can't think straight so I'm going to take this on and get rid of MIL or make her pay' vibes. Maybe your DP is avoiding saying anything because she's not comfortable with your accountant-style approach to the situation. Maybe she's factoring in how her sister might feel if your mum contributes more generously to your household. Maybe she's playing the long game, hoping that she'll inherit half her mum's estate and will be able to help her DD out, and fears that if her mum ends up in care all the capital could be lost.

Talk the whole thing through again with your partner taking into account her feelings, not just the bottom line of the accounts. If she wants to look after her mum at home then perhaps she can change her work or go part time so that she's more available to provide care. Just don't reduce the most important relationship of her life — her mum — to a monthly payment.

I don't think the OP is saying he wants to charge MIL for admin and services...He's just saying that he's currently subsidizing her living costs and it's a struggle, at a time when her bills have gone down by two thirds and she can easily afford to make a more reasonable contribution but is refuses on the grounds that she wants to pay the same as her GrandD who is just starting out and saving to move out. All he's saying is that he would like her to contribute fairly to actual bills.

It's also not a question of helping his DD and not his MIL. She's already been living with them for 18 months and in that time her diet, health and living conditions have been considerably improved. The fact that he's helping his child has nothing to do with whether his MIL should contribute to her share of household expenses.

I'm of an age where I have to worry about the point where I might need help and not be able to live independently. And there's no way in hell that I'd live with one of my daughters and NOT ensure that the financial side of it was more then fair to her. In fact I'd ensure that it was more than generous, because it's a massive tie and responsibility for offspring taking in an elderly parent.

So ignore the holier then though posters. Your MIL can more than afford to be fair or generous (it would be different altogether if she couldn't) and as her needs and your responsibilities are only going to get greater, this needs sorting now.

Christ, she’d be lucky to rent anywhere for £600 a month let alone be cared for 24/7.

You ought to be charging her nearer £1000 as you’re currently losing more than half your leisure time to caring for an elderly person. You could be spending your spare time doing other fun stuff, that no doubt the other daughter is enjoying.

Could you book her into somewhere for Respite care for a week to give yourselves a break and let her find out how much the cost of care is in the real world?

If she thinks she can find somewhere else and manage for cheaper then tell her to do so. She is a grown up and no one lives rent free. It is not making money off her, she is just paying her way. She shouldn’t be aware of how much DSD pays as the two are not comparable. Your DSD is completely independent for a start.

From what you’ve said I think there is a decent chance she would get attendance allowance. It’s not means tested, it relates to how much she can do for herself.

I filled in all the forms with my mum who has Alzheimer’s and she got the maximum amount - it’s about £450 a month. I was actually surprised she got that high level, as she can still do things like washing and dressing herself, but she can’t cook, shop etc and needs some help at night and would forget to take medication without being reminded. FWIW the advice I was given by the council was to base the answers on her worst days rather than her best.

Even if she’s deemed as qualifying for the minimum level it’s at least £300 a month.

I’d think if you or your partner took on the job of making the application it would be fair for that money to go towards her keep. It’s a long form but I don’t think it took more than an hour

www.gov.uk/attendance-allowance/what-youll-get

Would you take the same approach if it was an adult partner joining a single adult household? Eg the council tax increases by 25%, so they only pay 25% whilst their partner pays 75%? Why should the one moving in be subsidised by the other?

Yes I'm amazed by the ageism on mumsnet and other social media.

Older people are vulnerable, just as younger people are. The OP even states that her MIL was sleeping for most of the day because of her poor lifestyle prior to moving in.

Yet the OP sees her as a handy source of income rather than as her partner's loved mother. Well don't worry OP you'll get your hands on her cash once she's dead won't you?

Really really sad post. If we are lucky enough to get old, this post is totally indicative of how society will treat us. Of no value except for our accrued personal assets.

I hope the OPs kids turn out kinder than her.

Lots of people would not agree to have their elderly parent (or their partner's elderly parent) move in with them at all. This is not the norm in the U.K. anymore. So some credit to the couple for this to start with.