My mother in law wants to decide what to keep from a baby shower/donation.

[Gennah]

Hello everyone,

So I am currently living in Japan, and I live with my husband and mother in law. (It’s common to live with family especially when the baby comes so they can help)

I am 37 weeks pregnant now, and she has insisted that I keep all baby stuff in storage and refuses to let us use an empty room for a nursery. (Saying babies don’t need their own room)

I will be receiving a package today from my husband’s cousin which has second hand baby items. I was so excited to get it, but my mother in law said she is going to look through it and decide what to keep or throw away. (She also made me throw away a ton of clothes because she said I don’t need that many when I moved in. We can’t really afford to move out at this point considering the baby, maternity and paternity leave income cuts and my husband is going to inherit this house after she passes.)

I can’t help but feel angry about this. I am a first time mother and I appreciate help, but it’s my baby… I feel like I should have a say in what my baby will need or not need.

Considering the cultural differences and my feeling of inferiority to an experienced mother in law and elder, I am wondering if I am being unreasonable or if I am valid to feel the way I do.

Thank you for reading and for your thoughts.

It’s probably worth RTFT for this one. There’s a lot of subtlety and nuance.

The first part of your question I can't really answer. However the second part I'm not suggesting practicing Western values I'm suggesting just asking MIL to practice Western values. Most Japanese people are not well practiced at arguing and debating. It is quite likely that MIL will be as scared of disagreeing with the OP as the OP is a scared of disagreeing with the MIL. It's quite likely that never in the mother-in-law's life as someone in a junior social position said no to her. Given this she is unlikely to have thought about how to reply and is probably going to acquiesce to the OP. Reason why this works is because talking to an elder is is unthinkable in Japanese culture and therefore no elder has ever thought about how to reply. Japanese culture places a great weight on face and loss of face and an argument with your daughter-in-law results in loss of face. Japanese MIL is unlikely to challenge.

Custody laws don't mean you can't see your children. Japanese mother's will is near on absolute in Japan, save for actual criminal acts. The problem is if you, as a foreign woman, take the child out of Japan WITHOUT father's permission and refuse to return it. Then you'll get hounded down, because every baby is beyond preciousin their current demographics, the child returned to their japanese father and you'll be barred from ever entering the country again, so you wouldn't be able to see the child unless the father brings it to you, if under 20, or of the child's own will after 20.

So, in view of that combined with foreigners apparently not being able to access housing in Japan, how does a non Japanese woman in an abusive marriage with a Japanese man actually leave him and get to keep her child? Or is that just tough shit because of Japanese culture?

Pretty much. She'd be wholeheartedly encouraged to leave, minus the kids of course.

OP will be homeless and reliant on benefits with a child, if she does this, as she’s already stated that she has no family in the UK. And if she takes her child, the Japanese embassy will pursue her relentlessly until the child is returned. The alternative is to find common ground with MiL and learn about Japanese culture.

Yeah Ur right. I think every woman needs to know what happens if they have a child with a Japanese man in Japan. My goodness!!! A real eye opener 😮

Read @FluentRubyDog posts. From the little I know of Japanese culture she is spot on, and your assertion that Mil should be asked to practice western values is just absurd - they have no meaning in Japanese culture. If op does as you suggest, life is going to get very difficult, very quickly. She has no agency of her own as a foreigner, cannot get her own housing and cannot flee the country with her child. Better to lean into the culture and get Mil onside.

What a shame she didn't realise this before it was too late to get on a plane and get the fuck out of dodge. What an awful country if it subjects foreign women to such a fate.

Sounds like you're advising her to cosy up to the prison guards to make her incarceration as easy as possible.

Quite. Unfortunately, ‘D’H doesn’t seem to have given the OP enough information about Japanese customs to allow her to make an informed decision about if or where she wants children.

Edit to update following edit to the quoted post: I wouldn’t go as far as to say it s an awful country but OP seems to have gone in blind and the culture doesn’t suit her.

I'm afraid I do think any country which would effectively force foreign women to remain in an unhappy or abusive marriage if they ever want to see their children again is an awful country lacking in any kind of compassion.

I probably should point out, in the interest of honesty, that japanese men do come with their perks. Trick is to get the younger son, who has a fraction of family duty on him, compared to the elder one, or you get one with a progressive mother - typically a career driven one.

Here are my observations, based on 4 year relationship with one, and several second hand experiences from his sister, who was my second year uni flatmate. The relationship ended because I wasn't ready to marry at 25 and the word "mago" (grandchild) started making way too many appearances in family dinners.

1. Between the four walls, you're the queen. Outside of four walls, excluding the mom and the boss, you're the queen too. Just never ever make him lose face.
2. The money is indisputably yours. All of it. You're the boss on that point.
3. They put A LOT of effort in the sack. A LOT. And then some.
4. They are not the jealous variety, with the exception of the possibility the child isn't theirs, then all bets are off.
5. 100% pro choice all the way.
6. Extremely easy to keep happy, literally a good meal, hot bath and undisturbed sleep. That's it.
7. Your birthday, anniversary and Christmas dates will always be remembered and the presents extremely well thought of.
8. They will go get the sanitary products promptly, uncomplainigly, and throw in paracetamol and chocolate that you didn't ask for for good measure, while beating themselves up that they haven't done a good enough job.
9. They clean up after themselves.

10. You will never, ever find a toilet seat up.

Of course your not being unreasonable, out your foot down or move out. Your dh should also put his foot down.

I also think that this sounds terrible and it would be a deal-breaker for me if I was aware of it before I had had a child with a national. But OP wasn't aware of it, and she is about to have her baby, and now she's stuck with it and she has to work with it.

I'm really struck by how many posters cannot accept that other countries can have different rules that are so different from the rights we are used to having in the UK.

I also should probably point out that, while taking the child out without the father's consent will put you on japanese blacklist, a japanese dad will, by far and wide, defer to the mom, japanese or foreign (with the unfortunate exception of his mom, she reigns on). I don't want to make out that moms need the dad's permission for everyting, like in arab countries, because they really don't, more likely, once the baby arrives, the mom rules the roost. Except for MIL, who is then mom's sensei and revered because she gave birth to a son, ie the dad. Exceptions to this exist, of course, but are definitely not the rule.

Read the bloody thread. Different country, different culture - western values mean nothing.

Nope. Like I said, read FluentRubyDog’s posts. From the little bit of personal experience I have of Japanese culture, she’s spot on. OP is ‘Gaijin’ and has little agency while she is in Japan. She won’t be able to get housing or a job. She has no family in the UK so if she came back, she and her child would be homeless, and likely relentlessly pursued by the Japanese embassy to return the child - if they are successful her DH would have custody until the child is aged 20, and OP would be barred from entering Japan. Her best bet is to try to get on board with MiL and learn about the culture to make the best of things as they are. It’s not about whether I or anyone else ‘approves’ of any of this, it’s about recognising that in her situation she has little choice but to get on with it. Western culture has no meaning in Japan, so advising OP with that in mind is pointless.

None of what you have just said alters my previous perception. It's basically a 20 year prison sentence and all people can do is advise her how to make it as tolerable as possible.

That’s pretty much it, yes. And your assertion that I was advising her to cosy up to the prison guards to make her incarceration as easy as possible is probably accurate, but not because I think she should have to. It’s because that will be easier on her than the alternative. Doesn’t make it right, but once again, western culture means nothing - it’s all about Japanese culture and tradition.

But the OP must've had SOME idea of what her position would be when she married. It can't come as a complete surprise that she has to literally bow down to her MIL.
If I were in her situation, I'd have a heart to heart with my MIL, explaining to her how difficult it is for her to adapt but also empathizing with the MIL's need to behave the way she does (socially, culturally). She's married into the family and needs to suck it up for now. She has to think about the happiness and wellbeing of her child and her new family. It's not all about her. If she leaves, everyone loses. Including her.

I'm really interested by the comments about Japan pursuing children who are taken to other countries. I'm not a family lawyer, but my understanding is that Japan is a signatory to The Hague Convention on Child Abduction. If a child was resident in the UK and the Japanese parent made an application to have them repatriated to Japan, a UK judge would hear the case and assess it in line with the law which is the same no matter what the other country is, provided they're a Hague signatory. I don't see how ambassadors come into it? But I'm by no means an expert so very interested if anyone can explain how this pursuing actually happens in practice!

This is a genuine question, but OP, her husband and baby are 75% of the family - why is it reasonable that 25% of the family sets 100% of the family traditions? I don’t at all think OP shout get into confrontation with her mother-in-law, I think she should just quietly go on as she pleases and not take everything her MIL says as a dictate to be followed. MIL is surely within her rights to object to baby clutter overtaking the common areas of the home, but if OP wants more muslins and sleepsuits that her husband’s mum thinks is proper, she just needs to say “this is how many I think I’ll need” and just move on without any dramatics.

That's the theory.

The practice, not so much. Japan, having the ear of the USA on a very intimate basis due to indopacific conflicts, yields a hell of a lot of soft power and is master supreme at influencing things outside the normal channels in any country yearning to be on the good side of USA. UK ranks VERY high on that list. Fortunately, the Japanese self restraint is legendary in that department. There are a few exceptions to the restraint, like runaway yakuzas, any attempt to smuggle drugs in and abducted Japanese babies being some of them. Yes, the official channels may seem to be followed, but babies are one example where they will not desist no matter what the judge decides.

That still very much counts as confrontation in Japan, and is even more despised as disrespectful. You disrespect your MIL Aat your own peril.