To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

They are both male, banned from competing with women in other competitions and only competing at the Olympics because the IOC says they have 'F' in their passports.

The IOC are demonstrating that they could not care less about women or their right to fair and safe competition.

One of the interesting aspects of this is the number of people ready to believe they are female despite all the evidence to the contrary.

That’s really interesting. I have more respect for the people like the IOC who are at least saying they don’t care- a passport is enough for them.

From their own video, male.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CosMIBSIdix/

They have both failed a "gender eligibility test" from a blood sample. Twice. Neither has appealed against this failure. Appealing would have meant revealing the results in a public forum.

What do you think a gender eligibility blood test looks for?

Why do you think they didn't appeal?

Women have XX chromosomes. These two boxers are both XY, they are not women.

One of them appealed but then with drew the appeal.

Yanbu they are male.

XY equals male

It's really not hard.

How is it possible that we're all suddenly experts regarding her reproductive medical history?

Funny you mention reproductive medical history.

"Dr. Ioannis Filippatos is a Surgeon, Sport Medicine Doctor, and Ob/Gyn Specialist, with over 25 years of experience at the well-known REA Hospital in Athens, Greece, where he is also a shareholder. REA Hospital is certified by the Swiss Approval International as one of the best hospitals in the world since 2016 and is valid until 2025 He has an extensive and certified knowledge of medicine in all areas."

https://eubcboxing.org/presidents/

This man confirmed that he had seen the laboratory tests, from laboratories that are certified to international standards. He is an IVF specialist.

Do you think that he would know how to accurately read the tests? Do you think he would put his whole career in jeopardy if this was an error or a lie?

I don't really know, but I care that they should not be competing. They could be unusual in their body make up.

If they have a penis and testes then yes, if not, assuming they have a vulva/vagina, then they are female with a hormone defect of some description that renders them the same as male internally/ biologically. So either way they shouldn't be competing with regular women.

They are male with XY chromosomes.

They know they are male.

The IOC knows they are male.

But none of them care about the injustice and danger to women with XX chromosomes.

Maybe then spend some time reading up on it?

There is evidence that they don't meet the criteria to box in the women's category - the IBA test (I'm not an expert, but the only criteria for boxing in the women's category is... erm... being a woman? And they failed that test) 🤷‍♂️

I believe that these boxers were raised as females in countries where the medical provision isn't great and a decision was made to raise them as female due to their genitals being ambiguous.

Plausible for Imane Khelif, but not for Lin Yu Ting who comes from Taiwan, a country with near-universal literacy, one of the best educated populations, with advanced universal healthcare.

Males with DSDs that give them the male advantage of testosterone-driven male puberty.

And IOC-sponsored cheats.

If that evidence was available don't you think both boxers in question would have used it to appeal their IBA ban?

Enough said.....

This is what stands out for me. STILL prioritising the feelings of these potential cheats over the feelings and safety of their female opponents.

Both boxers can put this to bed by taking a test. Why don't they? Well we all know why.

I feel very sorry for the two boxers who, IMO, think they are female and have lived their whole lives as females. I hope that they get good support after the Olympics.

However, although we don’t know for a fact that they failed a chromosomal test, it does appear highly likely that they are XY with male strength and musculature.

I don’t think they can disqualify them mid olympics, but I really hope that they are beaten and are not allowed to box as females again.

What is rather interesting is Semenya's reaction.

Semenya has now pointed out just how discriminatory the IOCs approach to male athletes with male pubertal advantage is. They are complaining that the IOC's negligent and fucking weak approach to this entire issue has now resulted in Semenya being excluded, and these boxers who are also male with the advantages of male puberty (just as Semenya is) are allowed to compete.

All because the IOC refused to step up and protect female athlete's opportunities to fair competition and safety and made the international sporting organisations responsible instead. Meaning a complete lack of consistency across the events.

I agree that this is a mess and that IOC needs to show some leadership.

They declared in 2021 that they know that male people with male pubertal advantages being in female sport was unfair, but that female athletes could suck it up because the IOC prioritised inclusivity. Then they excluded the boxing federation that created the policy that IOC said they had to create and left this gaping loophole.

By the way, this is the same Semenya that has stated that Semenya's testicles do not make Semenya any less of a woman on the BBC not long ago. Semenya at least has the balls to admit they have testicles now.

https://archive.ph/a5Hv8

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/06/caster-semenya-accuses-ioc-over-lack-of-gender-consistency/

I haven't managed to read the entire thread but is someone able to provide evidence that Khelif isn't a woman?

All on the thread, and others.

Where is the actual evidence re the XY chromosomes? As far as I can see, it's the president of the IBA who said this, but the results haven't been published, and the decision to ban them was made unilaterally. This is i think where the Russian conspiracy theory comes in - ie they're allegedly making false claims against the boxers?
The IVF specialist who agreed - how did they get hold of the unpublished test results?
Were they the genuine results that they saw?

I personally don't think they should be competing against women, but there are many comments esp on this thread using the XY chromosome point and one saying the Algerian has a penis (which again seems to have people arguing either way).

While I agree that they should never box as female competitors again, I want to point out that it is highly likely that these male athletes have known since at least puberty that they are male.

They would have been taken to the doctors for testing as to why they never menstruated and why they seemed to have male puberty. That would be half their lives ago.

They have certainly know this since last year, most likely also had it confirmed in 2022 when they were initially failing tests.

I am sympathetic to their situation. Except that at the very least they knew in 2023. They have chosen to compete knowing that the science is already out there that they are putting female competitors in immense danger every time they get into the ring with a female boxer.

They have chosen this path deliberately. They have chosen to not respect female people in doing so. Their choices are all about their own winning glory.

I cannot have respect for their choices in this. They have chosen to punch women in the face in front of the world.

It is a conspiracy theory which came from Reddit. There is no reason to believe that the tests are invalid, and people who do are doing so because they have a vested interest.

What do you think it means to fail a "gender eligibility test" for women's sport?

No one is going to release the tests. Because to do this would be a breach of privacy for these athletes.

So, what is it that you want? THREE boxing federations have confirmed that they have seen all the test results and confirmed them. Three! Not just the IBA.

Why is it that you believe the IOC over three boxing federations? The IOC, who has a policy to prioritise inclusion over female athlete's fairness and safety as per the statements made by Dr Budgett of the IOC in November 2021?

Or is it that mainstream media is not reporting this accurately despite the information being out there? Do you then wonder why that is?

I felt sorry for them too until I found out they were banned last year from the world championships for the same reasons. So this is not new. They all knew already.

The issues are multiple.

lots of secrecy due to privacy laws. So people don’t know what the tests were and the results

the head of the ioc made a statement saying they were raised as women, think they are women and have female passports, thus they are women.and should be able to compete.

we all know this is simplistic. And dangerous when it comes to sports. Very dangerous indeed.if someone has dsd, but has elevated testosterone and xy chromosomes, then the dsd is likely to see them raised as female /male before it’s genetically known their true gender. Saying well they were raised a female and think they are doesn’t address the fact they are biological males

lack of appeals. Neither athlete is appealing, likely as they don’t wish the test results made public. Which would lead people to believe they show what they are being said to show, they are unequivocally male.

so I felt sorry for them too, but no matter how hard ro mentally accept once you know you’re a biological male then you should not be competing against biological women. It is both dangerous and uncompetitive. If a woman took testosterone to compete she’d be banned. As she’d have an advantage.

this doesn’t mean they can’t still identify as women, live as women, beleive they are women, but if their biology says they have a male advantage they should withdraw.