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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:22

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 15:41

Just to clarify @ArabellaScott though it's the semi finals tonight and tomorrow so the circus may continue on if they don't get knocked out (figuratively and/or literally) - they are both guaranteed a bronze at this point.

JJathome · 06/08/2024 15:41

I think biologically male also , that’s clear. However clearly more going on as raised as female. So obviously dsd or similar. Finding out they were male ar some point would have been a shock,

once they knew, whenever that was. Early teens or months ago, they should have immediately retired from the sport. And I’m appalled their countries entered them. As they are banned from other comps and knew.

entering a biological male to compete against a woman is not a fair fight.

CormorantStrikesBack · 06/08/2024 15:42

Xy chromosomes equals male.

Perfect28 · 06/08/2024 15:46

I'm so baffled. Everything I'm reading is about how this is a russian rooted conspiracy and yet everyone here believes it?

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 15:41

Just to clarify @ArabellaScott though it's the semi finals tonight and tomorrow so the circus may continue on if they don't get knocked out (figuratively and/or literally) - they are both guaranteed a bronze at this point.

Ah, sorry, I got mixed up. Thought this was the finals. Thanks.

OP posts:
WickieRoy · 06/08/2024 15:47

I think we don't actually know much about the facts, just a lot of supposition.

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

I think what makes someone male or female isn't as clear cut in cases like this as some would like it to be.

I think these two women are facing a traumatic trial by social media for reasons out of their control.

I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 15:47

Perfect28 · 06/08/2024 15:46

I'm so baffled. Everything I'm reading is about how this is a russian rooted conspiracy and yet everyone here believes it?

That is the thing about conspiracies, if you start to pull at the claims and they don't stand up , they simply show themselves to be false.

They are false. Many of us have done the research for ourselves.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 15:47

I'm so baffled. Everything I'm reading is about how this is a russian rooted conspiracy and yet everyone here believes it?

Perhaps you and your "filter bubble" are the conspiracy theorists here 🤷‍♀️

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 15:48

Perfect28 · 06/08/2024 15:46

I'm so baffled. Everything I'm reading is about how this is a russian rooted conspiracy and yet everyone here believes it?

The tests were oversee by the CAS, also responsible for current siping tests. Are they in this Russian conspiracy too?

BurnerName1 · 06/08/2024 15:49

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 15:26

Males with differences of sex development that have experienced male puberty. ie. testosterone driven puberty. That gives them male puberty advantage over female athletes.

I agree with this. They should never have been competing with women. They have disgraced the Olympics, as did aspects of the opening ceremony and the rapist competing.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 15:49

WickieRoy · 06/08/2024 15:47

I think we don't actually know much about the facts, just a lot of supposition.

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

I think what makes someone male or female isn't as clear cut in cases like this as some would like it to be.

I think these two women are facing a traumatic trial by social media for reasons out of their control.

I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport.

So, you don't trust a leading IVF specialist to read a chromosome laboratory test and publicly confirm someone is male. Do you think that the European Boxing Confederation is also corrupt? What about the World Boxing Organisation?

Do you think all three organisations who have confirmed these results are corrupt?

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 15:49

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

Why didn't the athletes appeal the result then? An appeal would have gone straight to the CAS, nothing to do with the IBA.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 15:50

I think we don't actually know much about the facts, just a lot of supposition.

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

The tests were carried out by independent laboratories.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/08/2024 15:51

The IOC themselves made a slip the other day when they said it wasn't a "DSD case" which they then had to walk back and issue a formal correction statement, because it quite clearly is a "DSD case".

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 15:52

For readers who think because they don't always win that this means they don't have competitive advantage, such as quoted below, perhaps this will help.

"I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport."

'But they didn't win', 'they have been beaten', what does it matter, type arguments really show a complete lack of understanding about competitive advantage.

The male athletes losing are losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost. They are not at any where near the level of exceptionality of the female athletes they are competing against.

In many instances, there performance rates as mediocre when compared to male athlete peak performance.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.

So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

What you are supporting is, in effect, very dangerous for female athletes due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages. In fact, part of the punch power is derived from skeletal leverage that males have to give this power that female people do not have. And bone mass and density that is greater in male people than female people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

This above is the review of 13 studies from Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg and it shows these advantages, if anyone wishes to check for themselves.

To be clear. This bone difference means stronger bones!

Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

To those who use the 'but they didn't win' what do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

A game of women's rugby at Swansea University

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women

Research has found women are at a greater risk than men and the effects are more severe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

FrippEnos · 06/08/2024 15:53

WickieRoy

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

The WBO has also banned them.

And lets be honest here, it would be very simple for the two boxers to put this to rest.

A quick 2 minute cheek swab would sort this out, why do they no do this?

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 15:53

FrippEnos · 06/08/2024 15:53

WickieRoy

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

The WBO has also banned them.

And lets be honest here, it would be very simple for the two boxers to put this to rest.

A quick 2 minute cheek swab would sort this out, why do they no do this?

Exactly

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 15:53

"I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport."

How is this as an example:

If someone put a motor on their bike and competed in the Tour de France, and lost, does that mean that the competitor didn't have a competitive advantage? Or was not a mediocre competitor to start with?

Just because 'they are not always winning' does not mean that they should be included in the female sports category at all.

In fact, for every male included in the female sport's category, that means at least one female if not many more, have been harmed in removing their opportunity. Why more? because of the displacement of each female person along the way for that male to reach the level they are competing.

That is direct discrimination against female people and it is a violation of female athlete's right to fair and safe sports.

TomatoSandwiches · 06/08/2024 15:53

Hoppinggreen · 06/08/2024 15:33

The fact that the Boxing federation banned them for not being women and they didn't appeal that decision is enough for me.
I believe that these boxers were raised as females in countries where the medical provision isn't great and a decision was made to raise them as female due to their genitals being ambiguous.
However, at puberty is would have been quite obvious that they were in fact male and I think that they and others like them are encouraged into sport by unscrupulous coaches who know they can win.
I am not without sympathy,in many cases this is a way out of poverty for themselves and their families and another traditional route of marriage may not be an option.
However, they ARE men in a biological sense and should not compete as women

This.

YANBU

SauviGone · 06/08/2024 15:54

I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport

Yet by sheer coincidence, the only 2 competitors that have a question mark over them as to whether they’re male, are both going to make the final.

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 06/08/2024 15:55

Perfect28 · 06/08/2024 15:46

I'm so baffled. Everything I'm reading is about how this is a russian rooted conspiracy and yet everyone here believes it?

Which bit do you think is a conspiracy and not true?
The IOC have said they have female passports, and that’s enough; that he was mistaken to say ‘not a matter of DSD’ and intended to say ‘not a trans situation’.

The IBA, EUBA and WBA say the boxers are male.
The boxers didn’t challenge the tests that said they were male.

Which bit is a Russian conspiracy?

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:56

Perfect28 · 06/08/2024 15:46

I'm so baffled. Everything I'm reading is about how this is a russian rooted conspiracy and yet everyone here believes it?

The evidence they are female is the IOC claim, based on their passports.

'the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.'

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

The IBA claim that two tests each were performed, at accredited labs, that showed XY karyotypes.

'Khelif and Lin were tested following their consent again before their first fights. Blood sample collection was made on 17 March 2023. Dr Lal PathLabs from New Delhi issued its report on 23 March 2023. The findings were absolutely identical to the first test results.
On 24 March 2023, IBA Secretary General & CEO at the time, George Yerolimpos, informed both Khelif and Lin about their exclusion from the Championships for not meeting the eligibility criteria.
...
Definition of Men/Male/Boy = individual with chromosome XY.
Definition of Women/Female/Girl = individual with chromosome XX

Rule 4.2. Eligibility on Gender:
4.2.1.Boxers will compete against boxers of the same gender, meaning Women vs Women and Men vs Men as per the definitions of these Rules.'

https://www.iba.sport/news/iba-clarifies-the-facts-the-letter-to-the-ioc-regarding-two-ineligible-boxers-was-sent-and-acknowledged/

Joint Paris 2024 Boxing Unit/IOC Statement

https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement

OP posts:
HurrahWuff · 06/08/2024 15:56

I don't even know what the correct terms are any more. But my thoughts are that they are men with some lady bits (I'm assuming, don't know their stories, so I guess they could be men saying they are women, but without the lady bits)

SlipperyLizard · 06/08/2024 15:56

Of course they are male, if they weren’t they could easily prove it but they haven’t. The IOC’s “correction” also confirms that they have a DSD (likely the same as Caster Semenya).

The fact that IOC don’t care that they are male is the real scandal. The IOC has prioritised inclusion (of males) over fairness and safety (for female boxers). They pretend that these three factors can be balanced, but they cannot, sports bodies must choose inclusion OR safety/fairness, it is simply not possible to include any males in women’s sports without sacrificing one or both.

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 06/08/2024 15:57

WickieRoy · 06/08/2024 15:47

I think we don't actually know much about the facts, just a lot of supposition.

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

I think what makes someone male or female isn't as clear cut in cases like this as some would like it to be.

I think these two women are facing a traumatic trial by social media for reasons out of their control.

I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport.

Oh, so only elite male athletes never lose to elite women athletes. Ok.

So DH could enter and lose to a few women, and obviously would be a woman. If he was a bike he’d win every time.

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