To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

On what basis would you exclude them from women's boxing if you don't think the second question should be asked?

By claiming the second question shouldn't be asked you are essentially saying that anyone with a female sex marker in their passport should be permitted to compete in the women's category. That's self ID for boxing which is a ridiculous idea, unless you don't care if a woman gets killed by an opponent who has all the sporting advantages of male puberty.

Answering the second question also answers the first question.

That must be disappointing for Semenya. Of course, that kind of disappointment was also experienced by the female athletes displaced by Semenya in women's events. Sucky, innit?

But you can't answer the first question without determining the second (are they female or male?). I don't understand your point.

You do know that Russia conspiracy thing has been debunked, yes?

Where did you get this information from?

You don't have a grasp of the basics of this situation

No, Khelif’s not. If they were a woman, they wouldn’t have failed two sex tests and they wouldn’t have XY chromosomes. I think I’m going to trust the gynae who said they were male.

Do these people even bother to read the thread?

Evidently not 🫠

Erm... wrong! On many levels! So much information on so many threads, did you not explore the issues being discussed FFS

XX chromosomes = biologically female

XY chromosomes = biologically male

Everything else is just window dressing.

I don't know if they are biologically male. Only those who have seen the results of tests, and the boxers themselves, know that for definite. (And presumably their families)

However, everything i have seen suggests that they are males with DSDs. If they knew they were biologically female why haven't they contested the tests saying they aren't? That's the first thing I'd do.

And I think that until/ unless they can prove they are biologically female, and haven't been through male puberty, then they shouldn't be allowed to compete with women.

I have every sympathy for anyone who is raised as one sex, and then finds out they are the other. But if that's the case they have known since puberty. So they should know they aren't allowed to compete with women.

Abs therefore I have even more sympathy for the women that have lost out to them, either by being beaten in a fight, or not getting a place in a team.

Who told you that?

Why? The answer to the second question is the crux of the first.

They're male - a rare case of being mis assigned as female at birth. Being raised as a girl doesn't make them so. It's hugely unfortunate for them but they are males with a DSD and so shouldn't compete in a women's sporting event and definitely not boxing.

YANBU they are XY males

There is no crossover between a healthy male under about 50 and a healthy female in their testosterone range. The maximum in the female range is about 5.5 nmol/L. This is shown on the chart I have attached. The 'Semenya line' is what Semenya was fighting in the CAS to reject as the maximum that they have to suppress their testosterone to to compete as per the 2018 change from the IOC. The Hubbard line was the line that Hubbard had to suppress to as a male with a transgender identity.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter (and refers to a male person with a DSD that it is likely that both of these male athletes have - 5ARD).

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

Males above 50 years old may have testosterone levels starting around 5 mol/L

Plus (with handy charts in the tweet)

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

Please do not spread misinformation. If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

WOMEN WITH PCOS ARE NOT IN THE MALE RANGE OF TESTOSTERONE.
Women with testosterone over about 5.5 nmol/L (no where near the male range) would be gravely ill and most likely with a tumour.

As someone else pointed out. Boxing has weight classes and sex/gender classes.

Imagine them saying they weren't going to bother weighing athletes, they'd just take their word for it instead? 🫠

Steve Bunce said that. I know who I believe. Steve Bunce. Whether the testosterone level should be permitted is another matter. Probably not but who judges that?

Said what?

This is so true.

Since you seem to know absolutely nothing, I’d like to suggest that you say absolutely nothing. Especially if what you’re going to say is so silly and offensive.

XY with DSD. Yes. They are both male

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

But the court of arbitration in sport is independent from them. And neither of the athletes chose to appeal to them.
This is the body Caster Semenya appealed to. It's separate to the individual sports' governing bodies.
They were banned by their sporting body - surely this made them ineligible for every international boxing competition apart from the Olympics every 4 years? You'd appeal to the independent body if the IBA was wrong/corrupt, because it's the only thing that could save your career.

Nope. Not always. Do a bit more reading.