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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:22

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:03

It is for the Olympics commitee to decide now. They did not accept the previous results. They do not seem to have carried out their own, which is quite puzzling. But I think they should, to clarify all this. And, going forwards, actually look in detail whether intersex individuals with disorders of sexual differenciation strong enough to have a doubt about their sex registered at birth would benefit of their own category, or can compete in the women's one, for each sport. If they could do in a privacy respectful way, that would be great- meaning no naked parades, if possible.

FrippEnos · 09/08/2024 14:06

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:03

It is for the Olympics commitee to decide now. They did not accept the previous results. They do not seem to have carried out their own, which is quite puzzling. But I think they should, to clarify all this. And, going forwards, actually look in detail whether intersex individuals with disorders of sexual differenciation strong enough to have a doubt about their sex registered at birth would benefit of their own category, or can compete in the women's one, for each sport. If they could do in a privacy respectful way, that would be great- meaning no naked parades, if possible.

The Olympic committee has said that they will not go back to the "bad days" of sex testing. This is even though 80 + % of the women athletes have no problem with it.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 14:08

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:03

It is for the Olympics commitee to decide now. They did not accept the previous results. They do not seem to have carried out their own, which is quite puzzling. But I think they should, to clarify all this. And, going forwards, actually look in detail whether intersex individuals with disorders of sexual differenciation strong enough to have a doubt about their sex registered at birth would benefit of their own category, or can compete in the women's one, for each sport. If they could do in a privacy respectful way, that would be great- meaning no naked parades, if possible.

Have you not understood that the IOC will not be testing these athletes. Because it would be against their current policy to do so.

ailicis · 09/08/2024 14:09

NoBinturongsHereMate · 09/08/2024 11:56

@ailicis it's great to have someone on the thread from rural Algeria who can give informed comment on some of the background info about the culture Imane grew up in. Do you happen to speak the dialect Imane does (I gather it's not standard Arabic [edit: just checked and apparently it's Darija)?

Edited

Darja isn't unique to rural Algeria. Almost all the country uses it. Some rural areas have Berber populations that speak Tamazight additionally. I'm not sure if Khelif's family are nomadic Arabs or Berber in origin.

ThreeWordHarpy · 09/08/2024 14:09

Even Princess Anne did the swab sex test thing when she competed in the Olympics. It raised eyebrows at the time but she didn’t want preferential treatment.

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:14

Have you not understood that I said I think they should?

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 14:19

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:14

Have you not understood that I said I think they should?

Great. But they won't.

Because they allowed a group of activists to convince them to change their policy in the late 90s. Those activists convinced them to prioritise inclusion based on philosophy rather than using physical science based criteria only.

To change now would mean that for over 25 years, the IOC would have to admit that they have discriminated against the female half of the population. That even their celebrated achievement of having 50 % female athletes at this Olympics may not have really been reached. Their whole basis for ‘fairness’ will have been shown to be false.

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:24

I said they should test. But a full comprehensive test, not just number and type of chromosomes, because the full assignment of biological sex is not straight forward for some individuals.
And there should be a rethink on this for future. Maybe even another category.
I find it unfair and all the boxers and harrassment in the case of Imane Khalif, that seems to have taken all the weight on this issue.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 14:26

Just to recap how we got here

From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review. The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The federations that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23. By the IOC removing the IBA from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

The announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 was along the line of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

That is where we are now.

The IOC is not going to test anyone who has fulfilled the criteria of 'female' in the passport and previous inclusion in competition, regardless of whether an athlete is now excluded with new policy restrictions. But they are not going to test anyone.

They certainly should test all female athletes equally as an initial screen for eligibility into a protected category such as female Olympic events.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 14:29

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:24

I said they should test. But a full comprehensive test, not just number and type of chromosomes, because the full assignment of biological sex is not straight forward for some individuals.
And there should be a rethink on this for future. Maybe even another category.
I find it unfair and all the boxers and harrassment in the case of Imane Khalif, that seems to have taken all the weight on this issue.

They should test. They should never have stopped testing.

And I don't believe one person on this thread would disagree with comprehensive testing if an anomaly was found on an initial screen.

The IOC was fully aware that this was an issue and should have protected all athletes. The male boxers and the female boxers by implementing the IBA policy just as they implemented FINA, WA, UCI & WR.

I suggest you go and take it up with the IOC, you will have a whole lot of support.

TheKeatingFive · 09/08/2024 14:30

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:24

I said they should test. But a full comprehensive test, not just number and type of chromosomes, because the full assignment of biological sex is not straight forward for some individuals.
And there should be a rethink on this for future. Maybe even another category.
I find it unfair and all the boxers and harrassment in the case of Imane Khalif, that seems to have taken all the weight on this issue.

I find it extraordinary that people have so much sympathy for Khelif, yet don't seem to care very much that the IOC policy is happy to turn a blind eye about men beating up women.

Don't these women deserve basic respect and protection? Where is the outpouring of empathy for them?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 14:45

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:24

I said they should test. But a full comprehensive test, not just number and type of chromosomes, because the full assignment of biological sex is not straight forward for some individuals.
And there should be a rethink on this for future. Maybe even another category.
I find it unfair and all the boxers and harrassment in the case of Imane Khalif, that seems to have taken all the weight on this issue.

I find it quite astonishing that you prioritise male feelings over the potential fatal consequences for females. What's wrong with you?

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:47

It is unfair and all of them.
There is a case to be taken to the Olympic commitee to rethink the matter. Women athletes' coaches and country representatives should be the first to take it up with them. They should take it to court.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 14:53

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:47

It is unfair and all of them.
There is a case to be taken to the Olympic commitee to rethink the matter. Women athletes' coaches and country representatives should be the first to take it up with them. They should take it to court.

Yet, in the past it has all been through extensive consultations with only the campaign groups that wanted inclusion. Including only trans people and their supporter for the changes in 2015 - no others to present a balancing view . I don't believe that the IOC has ever consulted with female athletes, their coaches or any campaign groups that prioritised female athlete's needs.

Why would we expect a misogynistic group to change their culture?

The telling moment was when Thomas Bach announced to the world the other day that he and the committee had never seen any definition of 'woman' other than the one that they used.

They have been sent papers, they have received letters with so much information in them. But this claim, this claim indicates that those have been ignored.

I would suggest it is based on them being seen as the 'good guys' to counter the corruption of the past. 25 years they have played the 'we are supporting female athletes' line. 25 years!

NoBinturongsHereMate · 09/08/2024 14:59

ailicis · 09/08/2024 14:09

Darja isn't unique to rural Algeria. Almost all the country uses it. Some rural areas have Berber populations that speak Tamazight additionally. I'm not sure if Khelif's family are nomadic Arabs or Berber in origin.

Thank you - that makes more sense of it being used for a TV interview then. And I assume that means you do speak it.

So, what of the claim that Imane self-describes using the masculine version of nouns - is that the case in these clips or not?

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 15:09

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 14:47

It is unfair and all of them.
There is a case to be taken to the Olympic commitee to rethink the matter. Women athletes' coaches and country representatives should be the first to take it up with them. They should take it to court.

Women were consulted. Over 80% wanted sex testing to remain. Yet the IOC removed it anyway. Women don't matter to them.

Helleofabore · 09/08/2024 15:14

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 15:09

Women were consulted. Over 80% wanted sex testing to remain. Yet the IOC removed it anyway. Women don't matter to them.

Actually, you are right. They used a survey.

They don't seem to have included any other opinion holders in the consultation other than the survey. Which they ignored.

ailicis · 09/08/2024 15:26

NoBinturongsHereMate · 09/08/2024 14:59

Thank you - that makes more sense of it being used for a TV interview then. And I assume that means you do speak it.

So, what of the claim that Imane self-describes using the masculine version of nouns - is that the case in these clips or not?

I speak basic darja yes. I've seen videos where she refers to herself in third person masculine- like one video I think she called her self a human being in masculine (Arabic is a very gendered language!). Women often do this in Algeria and Tunisia. In Morocco the opposite is used (i.e. everyone including men refer to themselves in third person feminine). My standard Arabic is better than my colloquial darja Arabic, so even I (who grew up in the UK) is not entirely used to hearing such pronouns being used when speaking. But it it's pretty standard when using colloquial Algerian Arabic/darja.

FrippEnos · 09/08/2024 15:31

Just to add to *Helleofabore's excellent post *

2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

That Hubbard had also suffered what would have been a career ending injury in either sex, yet the difference in power between the sexes still allowed him to compete that year. (even though IMO he intentionally threw it away on the day of competition).

MushMonster · 09/08/2024 15:35

Well, they gave it a go and it is not working.
And on the way to revise this, they should address what to do when they find out an athlete tests do not fully align with their sex stated at birth.
And there is an official definition of female, including all the sex determining factors.
Nobody is asking the Olympic commitee to assign woman/ man to anyone. It is not a gender test. It is a biological sex test/ assignment of unfair advantage test. They do not need to get another definition of woman.

MagpiePi · 09/08/2024 15:36

willowtolive · 08/08/2024 12:52

Have just caught up on it all , so the women's boxing final is between two men? Absolute bizarre fucking disgrace. How earth has this been allowed to happen? What can we do to stop this happening again?

No, they are in different weight categories, and it is considered unfair for fighters of different weights to compete against each other. Boxers are scrupulously weighed before each fight to ensure one doesn't have a physical advantage.

The irony is off the scale...

NoBinturongsHereMate · 09/08/2024 15:41

Thanks @ailicis

MistyHazelFox · 09/08/2024 15:45

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 09/08/2024 14:45

I find it quite astonishing that you prioritise male feelings over the potential fatal consequences for females. What's wrong with you?

Yeah, but what if she/he turns with xx chromosome? Because were not talking of man taking the test, we are talking about intersex person taking the test. There's about 40 different way intersex can display in person, which includes she/he being xx but still being intersex. Intersex doesn't mean she/he will be a man automatically if chromosome testing came out and it turns she/he is intersex because intersex person can have xxy, xyy, x, etc...

I'm not supporting Imane Khalif, but I think this is possibly a situation where she/he is intersex, but it was not completely clear to doctors who assisted they birth

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 09/08/2024 15:50

MistyHazelFox · 09/08/2024 15:45

Yeah, but what if she/he turns with xx chromosome? Because were not talking of man taking the test, we are talking about intersex person taking the test. There's about 40 different way intersex can display in person, which includes she/he being xx but still being intersex. Intersex doesn't mean she/he will be a man automatically if chromosome testing came out and it turns she/he is intersex because intersex person can have xxy, xyy, x, etc...

I'm not supporting Imane Khalif, but I think this is possibly a situation where she/he is intersex, but it was not completely clear to doctors who assisted they birth

Imane really isn’t going to return an XX result for several reasons.

  1. The test has already been done
  2. XX women with DSDs do not experience a male puberty as Imane clearly has. Many DSDs preclude elite sport. Health just isn’t that good.
eatfigs · 09/08/2024 15:51

MistyHazelFox · 09/08/2024 15:45

Yeah, but what if she/he turns with xx chromosome? Because were not talking of man taking the test, we are talking about intersex person taking the test. There's about 40 different way intersex can display in person, which includes she/he being xx but still being intersex. Intersex doesn't mean she/he will be a man automatically if chromosome testing came out and it turns she/he is intersex because intersex person can have xxy, xyy, x, etc...

I'm not supporting Imane Khalif, but I think this is possibly a situation where she/he is intersex, but it was not completely clear to doctors who assisted they birth

The lab reports came back with male (XY) karyotype though.

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