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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

1000 replies

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:22

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
Devilsmommy · 06/08/2024 15:57

They've got XY chromosomes so no matter what anyone says otherwise they're 100% Male

Dentalflossie · 06/08/2024 15:58

XY males presumably brought up as women because of some genital difference.
All olympic competitors need to have a chromosome test. Only XX can enter women's events. Scientific and simple.
YANBU

StellaGreen · 06/08/2024 15:58

Has this been moved from AIBU to news?

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 06/08/2024 15:58

They are bloody criminal is what they are.

JJathome · 06/08/2024 15:59

WickieRoy · 06/08/2024 15:47

I think we don't actually know much about the facts, just a lot of supposition.

I don't trust a word coming from the corrupt IBA.

I think what makes someone male or female isn't as clear cut in cases like this as some would like it to be.

I think these two women are facing a traumatic trial by social media for reasons out of their control.

I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport.

suggestinf being male or female is not clear cut is very divisive. They carried out a range of tests and both individuals were without doubt biologically male.

now at least one was raised as a female, so clearly something else going on, but they’ve been banned from competing elsewhere due to it, the issue in question is why the ioc allowed it.

Both countries knew these individuals are biologically male as they have been banned from competing in other global championships due to it. It isn’t something new.it isn’t they suddenly found out. This has been tested and proven before and they e been banned for it. The ioc however allowed them to compete.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 15:59

StellaGreen · 06/08/2024 15:58

Has this been moved from AIBU to news?

FFS. Yes.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 15:59

StellaGreen · 06/08/2024 15:58

Has this been moved from AIBU to news?

Seems so 🙄

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 16:00

"I think their records aren't so impressive as to think they have any advantage because of their biology beyond that of other athletes, most of whom will have a build/height/weight that advantages them in their chosen sport."

Here is another good explanation about competitive advantage. Particularly those who say, 'all great athletes have competitive advantage, why aren't they excluded' or shit like that.

It has links to relevant information embedded so it is best to see it on twitter.

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1374331296143581186

But here is some of it:

Phelps' wingspan:height ratio is 1.04. It's straightforward to find other males with the same ratio who are slower than Phelps in some strokes, but who are faster in others. e.g. Matt Grevers. Ratio 1.04, slower freestyle than Phelps, faster backstroker than Phelps. Interestingly, despite the same wingspan:height ratio, he's, in absolute numbers, generally bigger than Phelps.

What you never find is a female with the same wingspan:height ratio who is there or thereabouts compared with Phelps. Missy Franklin has a ratio of 1.03, yet is over 10% slower than Phelps.

It's almost like wingspan:height ratio isn't discriminatory in the pool. Even absolute wingspan or absolute height isn't discriminatory.

And there's a very simple reason. When you select, on national or international levels, for athletes that are good in a particular discipline, you will tend to pull through an entire group who all share the general advantage (in this case, swimmers are tall with long arms). Phelps, with height (not the tallest) and wingspan (not the widest, nor the biggest ratio) is, for sure, built to be a better swimmer than almost every other person in the world. But his body shape is not particularly extraordinary within that group of competitive swimmers.

To argue that his advantage is extraordinary within the entire male population, sure. Well, I wouldn't go with unfair, but's a real advantage. But he doesn't race against the male population. He races against other males who are likely to share the same advantage.

This is why The Phelps Gambit (trademark pending) is nonsense, and immediately flags that the person asserting it has read numerous MSM stories about the glorious physique of Phelps (and he was glorious, absolutely), without applying any deeper analysis.

Men can have long arms. Women can have long arms. Men with long arms are better swimmers than women with long arms.

TL/DR: Male athletes who reach the peak of their sport, who have gone through any degree of male puberty have unbeatable advantages over female athletes. However, they do NOT have unbeatable advantages compared to OTHER MALE ATHLETES WHO HAVE GONE THROUGH MALE PUBERTY.

x.com

https://x.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1374331296143581186

PermanentTemporary · 06/08/2024 16:00

I think that they are males with a DSD and should not be in the competition. But I acknowledge that I don't know, and that they could be female with a DSD and that they will deserve a lot of apologies if this is the case. In particular everyone who says 'you just have to look at them!' as if women who do sport should be judged on their femininity. Thought we were feminists.

I strongly believe that the IBA is using these cases to attack and undermine the IOC for banning it. Both these organisations are problematic to say the least, but the IOC is probably more organised and consistent, and despite all the corruption in its past I would take the IOC over the IBA. It is therefore infuriating that the IOC did not foresee the completely obvious loophole of damage to women's sport it left open when it decided that effective testing and decision-making for sex was much too dirty and sticky for its delicate little hands. Listening to Mark Adams made me want to kick something.

Beth216 · 06/08/2024 16:01

XY chromosomes so biologically male. They have a DSD that makes them appear more female, their testes are internal.

CandyLeBonBon · 06/08/2024 16:02

YANBU. They're male.

NetballHoop · 06/08/2024 16:03

XY = male. If either or both of them are XY then they are male. It really is as simple as that.

WomaninBoots · 06/08/2024 16:04

XY males. Possibly with a DSD that meant they were ambiguous to sex at birth and have been registered and brought up as female, hen they are in fact not.

In the extremely rare cases where XY can be considered female those individuals are more likely to look very feminine due to non-responsiveness to any masculinisation.

Plus the fact they didn't appeal with CAS. Sus.

The severe consequences of a male punching a female in boxing means that an "any doubt and you're out" type rule seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don't know how anyone can think otherwise unless you just don't care about women's safety.

user1471538275 · 06/08/2024 16:05

Their boxing losses aren't because they're really female so have lost sometimes to other better females.

It's because they're men, but really not very good at boxing, so that sometimes even their massive male advantages can't help them.

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 06/08/2024 16:05

PermanentTemporary · 06/08/2024 16:00

I think that they are males with a DSD and should not be in the competition. But I acknowledge that I don't know, and that they could be female with a DSD and that they will deserve a lot of apologies if this is the case. In particular everyone who says 'you just have to look at them!' as if women who do sport should be judged on their femininity. Thought we were feminists.

I strongly believe that the IBA is using these cases to attack and undermine the IOC for banning it. Both these organisations are problematic to say the least, but the IOC is probably more organised and consistent, and despite all the corruption in its past I would take the IOC over the IBA. It is therefore infuriating that the IOC did not foresee the completely obvious loophole of damage to women's sport it left open when it decided that effective testing and decision-making for sex was much too dirty and sticky for its delicate little hands. Listening to Mark Adams made me want to kick something.

I don’t think they are being judged as unfeminine- nothing about dress, length of hair or anything.

More about the angle of the thigh, shape of the knee, brow, speed of punch etc. Oh and the shape of the crotch protection one uses.

Runningupthecurtains · 06/08/2024 16:07

Re the view that they can't be male because they have lost some fights there are lots of reasons they could have lost fights but still have male advantage.

They could have deliberately lost a few fights to try and disguise their maleness or deflect attention from it.

They could have lost early in their careers when they were young and inexperienced.

They could have lost on marginal split points decisions.

They could have faced phenomenally good female fighters.

They could have been caught by a 'lucky' punch.

ArabellaScott · 06/08/2024 16:08

It's interesting that 88% of votes think that the boxers are male, despite the IOC's claims, and some of the wilder claims made on social media.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 16:09

PermanentTemporary · 06/08/2024 16:00

I think that they are males with a DSD and should not be in the competition. But I acknowledge that I don't know, and that they could be female with a DSD and that they will deserve a lot of apologies if this is the case. In particular everyone who says 'you just have to look at them!' as if women who do sport should be judged on their femininity. Thought we were feminists.

I strongly believe that the IBA is using these cases to attack and undermine the IOC for banning it. Both these organisations are problematic to say the least, but the IOC is probably more organised and consistent, and despite all the corruption in its past I would take the IOC over the IBA. It is therefore infuriating that the IOC did not foresee the completely obvious loophole of damage to women's sport it left open when it decided that effective testing and decision-making for sex was much too dirty and sticky for its delicate little hands. Listening to Mark Adams made me want to kick something.

yet, the WBO has also made the statement that they are male and are hoping to take over the responsibility of the boxing for the future.

So, if this information is incorrect why would the organisation who wants to take over confirm that the information was correct?

TheKeatingFive · 06/08/2024 16:09

The severe consequences of a male punching a female in boxing means that an "any doubt and you're out" type rule seems perfectly reasonable to me. I don't know how anyone can think otherwise unless you just don't care about women's safety.

Or at the very very least, any doubt and we'll test again to be sure.

MagpiePi · 06/08/2024 16:09

Male.

I have yet to see any photos of them presenting as female, despite all the assertions that they have been brought up as female their whole lives in gender conservative societies and both allegedly believe they are female.

ailicis · 06/08/2024 16:17

I haven't managed to read the entire thread but is someone able to provide evidence that Khelif isn't a woman? All I've heard are theories and unsubstantiated claims. There is no medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes, neither that she has elevated levels of testosterone. She was born female and identifies as female. How is it possible that we're all suddenly experts regarding her reproductive medical history?

KeirSpoutsTwaddle · 06/08/2024 16:18

ailicis · 06/08/2024 16:17

I haven't managed to read the entire thread but is someone able to provide evidence that Khelif isn't a woman? All I've heard are theories and unsubstantiated claims. There is no medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes, neither that she has elevated levels of testosterone. She was born female and identifies as female. How is it possible that we're all suddenly experts regarding her reproductive medical history?

Thread’s only 3 pages. Lots of evidence there.

Helleofabore · 06/08/2024 16:20

StellaGreen · 06/08/2024 15:58

Has this been moved from AIBU to news?

Must be something to do with some hyper-emotional posters having run out of new angles and feeling that they need to move a thread away from MNer's view rather than restarting posting misinformation with the outcome of emotionally manipulating people rather than posting the hard science and discussing it.

Some people can only do emotional reasoning and resent having their arguments pushed back on with that hard science.

Runningupthecurtains · 06/08/2024 16:20

ailicis · 06/08/2024 16:17

I haven't managed to read the entire thread but is someone able to provide evidence that Khelif isn't a woman? All I've heard are theories and unsubstantiated claims. There is no medical evidence that Khelif has XY chromosomes, neither that she has elevated levels of testosterone. She was born female and identifies as female. How is it possible that we're all suddenly experts regarding her reproductive medical history?

Because this isn't our first rodeo - the 'womens' 800m podium in Rio took some of us here before.

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