To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

@SinnerBoy

I see also that you are still trying to muddy the waters, by criticising the IBA, whilst ignoring the fact that the IOC are horrendously corrupt.

Not at all. I've said in previous posts that I don't think the IOC are necessarily particularly rosy. Just because I say one is corrupt doesn't mean I think the other is not.

I think they have ambiguous gender with likely XY or maybe XXY genetics. My view is that whilst I respect people with DSD’s right to identify with the gender that makes most sense for them in daily life, this doesn’t extend to competitive sport or any sports that could harm others (even at a recreational level).

MessinaBloom · Today 04:49

Not at all. I've said in previous posts that I don't think the IOC are necessarily particularly rosy. Just because I say one is corrupt doesn't mean I think the other is not.

Then why do you continually try to make hay with accusations of the IBA being corrupt?

Do you think that the two independently certified laboratories are in the pocket of the IBA? If not, what reason do you have for trying to give the impression that the tests are somehow tainted?

Because the IBA is corrupt. It's hardly a secret. As a said before, these two boxers were picked out for testing. Sex testing is not routine at the IBA. That the tests themselves are still mysterious, as are the results, and the reason for any results.

The IBA has every reason to cause disturbance at this Olympics, as they were ousted as the official boxing federation - a first in IOC history. They've managed to do that, haven't they?

So the IBA is corrupt and that means men can punch women? I don't understand that logic but if that's what helps you get up in the morning and make yourself feel good then I guess you crack on?

Male. It is disgusting women are being forced to fight them in the name of sport or equality or whatever. Animal used for baiting and fighting have more protection in law than women.

@MessinaBloom

There were other athletes tested who passed the sex tests. Not just these two.

The tests are not "mysterious". The eligibility is very clear within the IBA rules and the two athletes were found to be ineligible.

Summary so far:

The IBA is corrupt therefore everyone associated with them and everything they have touched, even ISO-accredited labs, is a lie. But also, the IOC is corrupt and they are beacons of truthfulness and those same ISO-accredited labs can be trusted for other tests.

One should not speculate on the likely DSD situation of the individuals because the details haven't been released. But also, the details shouldn't be released because of medical confidentiality (BTW, I agree with this).

One should not speculate on the possibility of male genitals of the individuals (BTW, I agree with this). But also, one can declare that the individuals have breasts, vulvas, vaginas, wombs and Fallopian tubes.

One should not assess the male sex of individuals simply based on appearance and presentation in publicly available photos (BTW, I agree with this). But also, here are approved photos of the individuals where one should assess their girliness simply based on appearance and presentation.

Testing for sex to confirm eligibility for previously sex-based categories is so last century. Checking weight for weight-based categories is an obvious and sensible measure.

Conclusion: In Righteous-world, corruption is an irregular noun and there are many irregular verbs. It is OK for male humans to beat up female humans. But it wouldn't be OK for male humans of a larger weight to beat up male humans of a smaller weight. And it wouldn't be OK for a female human of a larger weight to fight a male human of a smaller weight.

I use my eyes not stereotypes to see men and women.
Never doubted Annie Lennox was female just one example.
or Boy George in his heyday was male.
Men can say they are women, wear a dress and have long hair but they normally present as man in a dress. Sometimes a beautiful man in a dress but still a man in a dress or shorts or whatever.

Why were they picked out?

Because coaches and other competitors raised concerns.

Do you think nobody should raise concerns?

The fairest thing would be a cheek swab of all athletes, which need only happen once.

Yes, but everyone is saying they are XY with no convincing evidence. I don't trust the IOC but unless and until a swab test is done to confirm whether they are XY or XX none of us can really have an opinion. We don't know anything. We're just surmising on the basis of unconfirmed reports. It's fine saying "Dr x said" and "a discredited boxing body said". Hearsay is not evidence.

A swab test would put the matter beyond doubt. The IOC hasn't done it and the two boxers haven't asked for it to put the matter to bed. That tells its own story. But a negative still doesn't prove a positive.

It's time a swab test was introduced for all elite athletes. Once you get to the level of needing doping tests, you have a swab test. Your chromosomes don't change, so once done at your first major event, you don't need to worry about it again. Sharron Davies has called for this.

Why do you think they were picked out?
The Russian angle doesn't hold water. Neither are from countries Russia has a particularly poor relationship with/ grudge against. Although one fought a Russian at the world champs it was in the early rounds so they wouldn't gain reinstatement or a medal from Khelif being barred. Another Taiwanese fighter won gold without being 'targetted'.
Russia are enjoying the chaos that has ensued and gleefully chucking fuel on the current dumpster fire that is this mess but they would have had no way of knowing that the IOC would allow the boxers to compete. The IOC (despite their claims otherwise) have known for a year and could have sorted this out away from the glare of the games without turn the full glare of the world into individual competitors.
If it was a Russian conspiracy surely the Russians would have expected the boxers to appeal/ clear their names / have conclusive counter tests done so it would be a pretty daft strategy, trying to damage something with a proveable lie. "John's got COVID" John reaches for COVID tests swabs cheek and shows single line to the world - harm done minimal.

It has been confirmed. By three boxing organisations.

The IOC won't do it. These athletes are competing within the IOC guidelines which they have stated prioritise inclusion above all else. They lie when they say that safety is just as high a priority, because boxing has shown this to be a glaring falsehood.

So, the IOC won't test. The IBA tested. Other boxing organisations have seen the test results produced by ISO certified laboratories.

You can say there is no convincing evidence. And talk about the IOC but the reality is, two tests each boxer was done. The evidence is there, people are choosing to ignore it.

And yes, every person seeking to enter any protected category of sport needs to be tested for eligibility to enter that category. It was because of allowing male athletes exactly like these are presumed to be, into the female category of sports that we are in this situation. All because a campaign group felt that testing for sex was against the human rights of the people that had gone through male puberty.

... no? I don't follow your logic, either.

Is that so? Who were they?

One would hope that isn't a summary of my arguments - if it is, it needs revision. C-

It's not all about you, Carly Simon.

Two men who should not be fighting women.

@ArabellaScott

Why were they picked out?
Because coaches and other competitors raised concerns.
Do you think nobody should raise concerns?
The fairest thing would be a cheek swab of all athletes, which need only happen once.

How can you know coaches and other competitors raised concerns, Arabella? Were you there? If you are relying on IBA statements for this, you really should state that.

Of course people around them should raise concerns - not random people on the internet. I agree with cheek swabbing.

Why would any organisation release this information if the athletes were tested and found eligible, if the same laws prevent disclosing further information about these two athletes other than they were excluded due to ineligibility due to not having xx chromsomes and being judged as having competitive advantage. That is just not going to happen.

@Runningupthecurtains

Why do you think they were picked out?

The Russian angle doesn't hold water. Neither are from countries Russia has a particularly poor relationship with/ grudge against. Although one fought a Russian at the world champs it was in the early rounds so they wouldn't gain reinstatement or a medal from Khelif being barred. Another Taiwanese fighter won gold without being 'targetted'.

Russia are enjoying the chaos that has ensued and gleefully chucking fuel on the current dumpster fire that is this mess but they would have had no way of knowing that the IOC would allow the boxers to compete. The IOC (despite their claims otherwise) have known for a year and could have sorted this out away from the glare of the games without turn the full glare of the world into individual competitors.

If it was a Russian conspiracy surely the Russians would have expected the boxers to appeal/ clear their names / have conclusive counter tests done so it would be a pretty daft strategy, trying to damage something with a proveable lie. "John's got COVID" John reaches for COVID tests swabs cheek and shows single line to the world - harm done minimal.

You wrote your own answer. It's chaos and who has caused it? The corrupt IBA that is awash with Russians. Now, one of the aims of Russia is to destabilise trust in Western institutions. How many posts have you seen over the past two weeks or so stating 'I'm never watching the Olympics again,'Fuck the IOC', 'the IOC are morally and ethically dead,' etc. etc.

We're being manipulated on a global scale.

Is that so? Who were they?

The president of the EBC stated four boxers were tested. The names of the other two were not given

www.telegraph.co.uk/olympics/2024/08/05/imane-khelif-iba-explain-olympics-gender-row-boxer-live/

@Helleofabore

Why would any organisation release this information if the athletes were tested and found eligible, if the same laws prevent disclosing further information about these two athletes other than they were excluded due to ineligibility due to not having xx chromsomes and being judged as having competitive advantage. That is just not going to happen.

Handy. But are numbers known, at the very least?

Thank you. That's still not the entire group, is it?

Cheek swabbing wouldn’t tell anyone the full picture of the state of anyone’s Y chromosome. In individuals with DSD the Y chromosome can be damaged, incomplete and non-functioning to various extents. It’s also important to determine the presence of the SRY gene, without which the ‘male’ will not make testosterone, and then the state of the Y chromosome will determine how the body responds to any production of testosterone. One needs to test genes, hormones and responsiveness to hormones to build a more robust picture of anyone’s advantage in sport.

But this likely won’t be done because it’s expensive and takes time.