To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

The IOC is rich. Of course they could do it,

But the IBA could have no clue it would get to this stage - if it is, as you suspect a lie on their behalf, they would think it will would cause a minor ripple at the world champs then the boxers would appeal to CAS, clear their names and carry on with no fuss.
The only way the IBA /Russians could predict a massive scandal is if they knew the boxers were male (they do) and they knew the IOC would let them fight (they could take a punt on the IOC sticking to inclusion over fairness because they have form). But if the IBA know the boxers are females they know there wouldn't be any chaos.
So the only route to chaos involves certainty that they are male.

2023 small headline Two boxers who failed corrupt IBA 'gender' test clear their names through CAS and are eligible for the 2024 Olympics.
No fuss, no chaos.

The vast majority of testing done would be as expected. It would only be in a very very small no of cases where further testing other than cheek swabs would be needed. Hardly going to break the bank.

Or they could just say female sport is XX only and the male category is for anyone else. Simple.

Oh come on. OF COURSE they are XY males. If they weren’t the two boxers would simply release the existing lab tests or take a new sex (karyotype) test, wave the results triumphantly in a press conference, sue everyone (including JK Rowling & the Greek doctor) retire filthy rich and vindicated with the careers and reputations of their accusers in tatters. As it is they haven’t even denied having XY chromosomes. Y do you think that is?

Quite.

The realms people will go to!

Did you notice the women who have fought these athletes making gestures of protest and speaking out/breaking down in tears? Or were you unable to see them for some reason?

Luckily DSDs that allow elite athleticism are quite unusual, so not many detailed investigations will need to be done.
XX will confirm the overwhelming majority. XY will need investigation, but ought to be rare. And yet it doesn’t seem to be. Hmm.

It's astonishing isn't it. These women are also wrong, or liars.

There's also the trans boxer protesting about this too.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-13701255/amp/Hergie-Bacyadan-female-boxer-identifies-man-calls-fighters-fail-gender-tests-banned-Imane-Khelif-Lin-Yu-ting-Angela-Carini-Paris-Olympics.html

I see what you did there!

To be honest it was the female athletes' responses that I found most concerning in all of this. They're the ones getting punched in the face. They fucking know.

That initial concern was then backed up by the tests carried out and reported on by the IBA's doctor. And the athletes' failure to appeal.

For me, it boils down to:

Should people with male pubertal advantage compete in the female sports category?

If no, then it follows that testing for sex and any subsequent factors relating to male advantage, is clearly necessary. Discussion of sad feelings, presentation and fashion sense is surplus to requirements.

If yes, then it follows that zero gatekeeping is needed, and pretence of such is merely fraudulent window-dressing. Discussion of sad feelings, presentation and fashion sense is surplus to requirements.

Why do you think they were picked out?
The Russian angle doesn't hold water. Neither are from countries Russia has a particularly poor relationship with/ grudge against. Although one fought a Russian at the world champs it was in the early rounds so they wouldn't gain reinstatement or a medal from Khelif being barred. Another Taiwanese fighter won gold without being 'targetted'.

Other Russians were also defeated by boxers from other countries.

This nails it

I seem to remember including a Ukrainian who would surely be number one on a Russian shit list.

But most importantly if it was a big fat Russian lie the 'targeted' athletes would just prove it was a lie! The only way this could gain enough traction to be worth the effort is if it can't be easily disproved and the one way the nasty conspirators could know it can't be disproved is because.......drum roll it's actually true.

It's testosterone receptivity testing which would (arguably) be the crucial piece of the puzzle in determining sporting advantage. And if we're not arguing sporting advantage then what are we arguing? You can have high levels of testosterone, yet be completely insensitive to it, depending on the state of your Y chromosome.

If you are categorising into two groups in the first place due to sporting advantage (because when all is said and done, the marker for that is XX and XY) then anomalies should also be judged by sporting advantage markers. And it isn't necessarily fair to place an XY, in which the Y is damaged, incomplete or non-functioning, into a category with undamaged, complete and fully functioning chromosomes.

BBC finally following the science 😱🥳

Contributions from Dr Emma Hilton too!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/crlr8gp813ko

Unless you want to factor in the advantage of not having periods etc.
There is a increasing body of evidence to show women are more at risk of injury at certain points in their cycle.
I personally am on the fence on CAIS etc because there are XX women who don't have to deal with mensuration for a number of reasons.
But the governing bodies should create a policy to account for the vast majority of the population and the edge cases and enforce it whichever way they choose to go on the issue.

If you are categorising into two groups in the first place due to sporting advantage (because when all is said and done, the marker for that is XX and XY) then anomalies should also be judged by sporting advantage markers. And it isn't necessarily fair to place an XY, in which the Y is damaged, incomplete or non-functioning, into a category with undamaged, complete and fully functioning chromosomes.

The female category is not a category for males with medical conditions.

You're arguing here for the equivalent of a Paralympic category for DSDs.

and yet again......

Women's sport is not a consolation prize for men who can't cut it (for whatever reason) in the mens

I was thinking of the Paralympics when I was typing that, indeed, but obviously that wouldn't work due to sheer lack of numbers ...

I guess my point is that males and females are split in the first place because of sex-based sporting advantage, so it all technically becomes a little arbitrary when then arguing for or against any one individual due to a sex-based sporting advantage/disadvantage condition. If by hormone receptivity tests, they are no more biologically advantaged than an XX female, then what's the difference? Especially when they may be severely biologically disadvantaged when placed into a category with 'Y' intact XY males.

Very different as this is a Biological woman that identifies as trans and has not taken testosterone or any other drugs to transition.

Yes Fripp, but they are protesting saying that those male boxers should be excluded if I remember correctly.

@FrippEnos we were asked for evidence of other athletes protesting against this. It also shows that the accusations that this is a transphobic issue are completely unfounded.

Helleofabore, GargoylesofBeelzebub

Point taken.