To ask if you think the Olympic boxers are male?

[ArabellaScott]

The finals for both boxers are tonight and tomorrow.

I'm curious to hear whether people think they are females with a DSD, or males with a DSD.

YABU - they're female
YANBU - they're male

No the IOC confirmed it was a DSD issue when they had to issue a correction to a press conference statement

This.

You honestly think that if those country's Olympics committees were going to try and sneak through men as women that they wouldn't try to make them look more feminine?

Two words. Caster Semenya.

letsghostdance · Yesterday 23:40

It is vital to state here that it has not been confirmed that these individuals have XY chromosomes.

Yes they have, the IOC has lied about it and tried to shut down any discussion about it.

This is still in contention and only suggested by the Russian based boxing committee.

The IBA (International Boxing Association) is not a Russian organisation. It was formed in France in 1946. It has more than 200 national boxing authorities as members.

The two tests were not carried out by the IBA, but at their request.

The two different, entirely independent laboratories in two entirely different countries are approved by the IOC. They are also approved by the ISO.

you're looking at two masculine looking women...

Because it says so on their passports? 🤔

Correction:

Two masculine looking men, who are posing as women.

We're quite happy for men to look feminine.

We're not happy for men to be in women's sports.

They can look feminine whilst participating in men's boxing if they like.

'wrong side of this' - nah! I'm happy with the side I'm on thanks

The majority of people here are on the wrong side of this.

I'm on the side where I don't want men beating up women in the name of sport. You are presumably on the side that thinks that's fine.

My conscience knows I'm in the right

Haven’t read the full thread.

I think these two people are some of the very few worldwide who naturally have aspects of male biology and aspects of female biology. So (unlike trans people) I don’t think we can say baldly that they are men or women.

However I strongly believe that female sports should be reserved for those who are biologically fully female with no male biological aspects. So nobody with, for example, XY chromosomes and/or with testosterone levels above the range that women would have.

I feel sorry for people with DSD who have found out late in life that they have this condition and that it may restrict their options once discovered. However, they always have the option to compete in male sport.

I also suspect some countries are deliberately and cynically seeking out people with DSD to enter them as female athletes - knowing they will have male physical advantages but may be able to qualify as female under certain bodies’ rules.

They don't have aspects of male and female biology.

They might have a different in sexual development in their male biology.

The Emma Hilton video above is quite useful in explaining.

I think we need to say baldly that they are men, because dancing round the point is getting women hurt.

We need to change rules like the IOC 'F on passport' to rules that actually focus on science and biology. Then there will be no issue and coaches looking to cheat will need to look elsewhere.

They are obviously male as most people can see with their eyes no gene tests required.
if they were xx they would have submitted to testing and cleared the whole sorry mess up.
the ioc are complicit In violence against women on a world stage for sport and they will not be forgiven.
diwguw cheating cowards

I thought they (or one of them at least) had a vagina? In any case though, IMO that is overridden by having XY chromosomes

Useful info here: Briefing on DSDs and women’s sport: http://sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Sport-and-DSDs.pdf

Briefing on the Olympic boxing situation and male inclusion in women’s sport: http://sex-matters.org/wp-content/up

@minipie I don't think either has been asked to have a physical examination because that would be degrading. They have had blood tests.

Why did you think that?

i think we need to say baldly that they are men, because dancing round the point is getting women hurt.

This is spot on

After a lot of family members saying trans women are women no argument, it’s interesting to see that they all agree that feeling like a woman on the inside is not enough to let you compete in women’s sports. I think this boxing match has thrown a stark light on an issue that gets shut down too quickly.

It’s all over twitter although appreciate that’s not exactly authoritative. However it’s the most likely reason for being assigned female at birth (which they were) despite having XY chromosomes.

Genitalia is more than likely ambiguous in cases of 5ARD, it's incredibly unlikely that they would appear fully female. I did read a study yesterday on precise numbers with various presentations, but can't bloody find it now!
More likely is that baby with genital defects is viewed in certain situations as "less than" male, and so female is assigned (appropriate usage for once!) as somewhat of a consolation prize. But women are not defective men, and in developed countries this is not the procedure that would be followed.

I think these two people are some of the very few worldwide who naturally have aspects of male biology and aspects of female biology. So (unlike trans people) I don’t think we can say baldly that they are men or women.

No. If they, like Caster Semenya, have 5ARD (which appears to be the most common DSD among XY athletes competing in women's sports) then they are males who naturally have most aspects of male biology but also lack some aspects of male biology. It does not mean that they have some aspects of female biology. An in-pouching of the perineum that does not develop, due to the lack of oestrogen, is not a female vagina. It does not mean that their sex is unclear. Just as with trans identified people, the vast majority of adult XY individuals with DSDs are adult human males, ie men.*

There is no such thing as hermaphroditism, which is what you are implying.

(*XY individuals with CAIS may, possibly, be women.)

I don’t know the exact biological features of these individuals and tbh I don’t think anyone on this thread does either.

I don’t think it’s necessary to say “they are men” in order to exclude them from women’s sports. I think it is sufficient that they have XY chromosomes.

I'm not sure why you're trying to distinguish between those two declarations.

They are to all (or almost all) intents and purposes the same thing.

There is, I believe, one condition that involves XY chromosomes that's technically considered female, but that doesn't fit the profile of these athletes at all.

@SinnerBoy

Of course the tests are clear, as attested to by the experts who've seen and analysed them.

They were chromosome tests, which the IBA, WBO and EBU referred to as "gender" tests, what else could they possibly be? They mean sex, rather than gender, of course.

The two independent laboratories are independent of both organisations, accredited by the CAS and by the international standards people, the ISO.

Please stop grasping for straws that were washed away ages ago.

Thank you for your thoughts, Sinner. These two athletes were picked out for testing - it wasn't routine for the IBA to conduct such testing, yet they made an exception here. Why? It is known the IBA is corrupt. The WBO is affiliated with the IBA. We don't know the exact details of the tests, or the reasons for any anomalous results. The Greek physician that verified these results (now with the EUBC) was previously chairman of the IBA medical committee. It seems quite messy and not clear at all.

@BeyondOlympicLevelProcrastinator

Re reds under the bed...

Dr Ioannis Filippatos - the (Greek) president of the European Boxing Confederation, also a Sports medicine and obgyn specialist - has seen the results and agrees that a male karyotype and physical advantage were both found in both boxers.

He was also formerly chairman of the IBA medical committee. The corrupt one.

@SinnerBoy

The IBA (International Boxing Association) is not a Russian organisation. It was formed in France in 1946. It has more than 200 national boxing authorities as members.

Much has changed since then!

Male.

MessinaBloom · Today 02:23

Thank you for your thoughts, Sinner. These two athletes were picked out for testing - it wasn't routine for the IBA to conduct such testing, yet they made an exception here. Why?

Because, as reported in articles linked on a number of these threads, coaches from other countries were suspicious and asked for the tests. The why is irrelevant, the results are what is pertinent.

Those results are two independent tests each, both failed.

I see also that you are still trying to muddy the waters, by criticising the IBA, whilst ignoring the fact that the IOC are horrendously corrupt.

You are also ignoring the incontrovertible fact that both laboratories are accredited by the ISO (International Standards Organisation) and approved by:

Da da daahhh!!!!! ...... the International Olympic Committee.