Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Deciding that different sports are for one sex or the other isn't "sex segregation" within sport. It's just plain old sexism. It's been fairly well pushed back against but still persists in some areas and to some extent. Feminism doesn't argue that some sports are only for men and some for women, because that would be contra to the entire point of feminism.

There’s really no need to be rude.

i freely admitted I know v little about elite sports- or sports in general.

At school the girls were not allowed to play football. Not because we couldn’t compete with the boys, because we were girls and girls played netball. Likewise boys did cricket and girls did rounders. There were diff sports for boys and girls.

I am loving seeing all these new posters who have not been posting on the numerous threads that OP has been on but who have obviously been reading the threads. It is great to see!

Sex segregation in sport (i.e. division by sex) is not the same as saying there are 'women's sports' to only be played by women and 'men's sports' to only be played by men. There are just sports, and typically for reasons of fairness and safety they are sex-segregated at puberty. This creates a level playing field for females. In exactly the same way that we don't have 8 year olds (of either sex) playing rugby against 25 year olds, or featherweights boxing heavyweights - it's not a level playing field and it's not physically safe.

You’re conflating the sexism around women not being allowed to do certain sports because it was considered unwomanly with the necessity of separating sport by sex for fairness and safety

Sex is a protected characteristic for a reason and transwomen are men.

I seem to remember this from a BBC 4 documentary series presented by Dr Amanda Vickery, she was fantastic. It's no longer available but the BBC did not use the title Dr for Amanda Vickery, arseholes. Anyway she's now a Professor.

yes im a feminist

yes I am. You don’t get to define feminism or police who is and isn’t a feminist.

@FOJN yeah I know tbh I was just feeling a bit guilty that I see other posters repeatedly explaining sensible arguments, while I nod in agreement but don't often bother to post. So I thought it was about time I spoke up, to give you and others a break if you like. Thank you to you and others who regularly make the effort to post.

@Tandora I read the first section of the article, but not the rest since I have a life. Do you think the author would be happy to participate in a boxing match against an adult male of similar weight and experience?

I’m normally hesitant to post on this subject - but I’m so fed up of the absolute bullshit - OP do you not understand basic biology? It’s not fair to have trans women in women’s sport at any level.

All of you against sport segregated by sex need to come up with a better answer than some vague case by case basis answer. Prove it could be fair another way and it has to be practical as well. I doubt it can be done. People have been saying this for over a decade at least and I’ve seen no further advancement of the idea.

i freely admitted I know v little about elite sports- or sports in general.

And yet you started this thread.

Maybe I should start one on welding. I don't know anything about it, mind.

Can we leave Islam out of this please? Lots of Muslim women don’t wear hijabs. Whether she wears one or not has no bearing on her eligibility or otherwise for the women’s event.

That's not rude. If you're going to keep correcting people as if they're wrong when you are actually the one who is wrong because you haven't even bothered doing a tiny bit of research expect it to come back and bite you on the arse!

i freely admitted I know v little about elite sports- or sports in general.

Yet you started a thread claiming there should be no sex segregation in elite sports. Bit silly, no?

I don't think many of us would argue with any of that, apart from the last bit. Can't you see that segregating by anything other than sex would be totally unworkable? Can you imagine how many arguments about what tests should be performed, how long it would all take, and how many appeals there would be?

Questions.
Why are you against sex testing?
Transwomen have gone through male puberty. That tells its own story.
In any sport, from croquet to rugby men are more powerful, have faster muscle reactions (apparently) are bigger and stronger. They can kick harder, reach further, have larger hearts and lungs and greater resilience. Yes, I am generalising.
In my view, anyone with a Y chromosome should not be competing in women's sports. I believe there are other tests, I'm not an expert.
No idea what you've been reading but we are not weak, feeble and helpless.
I had a glance at the article. I'm not a believer in mixed sports after the age of about 7.

I posted the thread, explaining I had just started looking into the subject, shared an article I found and invited people to read and discuss it.

Nothing wrong with that at all.

please do feel free to discuss the the article rather than insulting me

And yet now women can indeed play cricket, football and rugby.

3beesinmybonnet

The more the merrier.

TRA logic dictates that when you're losing the argument the best thing to do is keep drawing attention to how batshit the arguments are. OP doesn't realise she's providing a platform for comprehensive debunking of TRA talking points.

Can you imagine how many arguments about what tests should be performed, how long it would all take, and how many appeals there would be?

this is true and a very good point,

But look at the horrible arguments that are being had over who qualifies as a woman, and the damage it’s doing to some women’s lives, and trans and DSD issues in general, and feminism!

It makes no personal difference to me if anyone, male or female, competes, but why wouldn't those who do care try everything possible to ensure a level playing field?

Is it worth it just to spare the feelings of a few people who can't accept biological truths?

OP, I hope this thread has been helpful to you.

By your own admission, you know nothing about sport, and here we have hundreds of posts in a very short space of time explaining why sex segregation is absolutely critical.

Are you going to take that on board and rethink your stance that transwomen and people with XY DSDs who have benefited from male puberty should be included in women's sports?

If not, why not? Why do you think that you, who knows nothing about sport, knows better?

I don't understand why you would start a post claiming things about a subject you know so little about.

When were you a child at school doing hockey and netball? Because I was, in the 90s. Happily the world is quite a different place 30 years on.

Yes that’s great that it’s changing

Because I was interested in this article and wanted to share /
discuss it.
seems easily intelligible to me!