Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Watching the boxing. Don't know why I'm torturing myself. Apparently 'Lin's a talented boxer who uses her height and range'. Also Stanova complained that Lin was going in with the head and elbows. Nice. At least Lin was warned about behaviour. Obviously Stanova is really good and tried to hold her own but apparently she 'needs to try harder' said the commentators. Truly repulsive. I don't know how the male commentators have the absolute cheek to big up a male boxer in a female event.

quite the feminist then, a big fuck you to women’s sports.

But all the current studies that are robustly reviewed have proven that even with reduced testosterone male people who have gone through male puberty have physical advantages over female people.

Your opinion is not compatible with fairness and safety for female people in sport. And you have admitted on this very thread that you don’t know much about sport at all

So, really you are just saying you don’t agree from a position of not having any factual knowledge base to hang that on.

It is somewhat alarming the similarity between aspects of Gender Ideology and the incel movement in terms of beliefs and behaviour.

Incels are loving the work of Gender Ideologists and positively cock-a-hoop with the Olympic Boxing debacle.

Interesting bedfellows.

Very good question. But some people do. Thats why “subconscious sex” is a better term than gender ID. This “knowing” is at a subconscious level and it can’t be changed by any external information- eg objective knowledge about the body , sex categories etc.

It’s clearly a psychological phenomenon, but it may well have a biological underpinning.

What we need is a clear and unambiguous definition of male and female, that is agreed by the majority of people; particularly for sport. The possible measures are chromosomes e.g. that you are male if you have a Y chromosome. .I've also read people talk about 'normal' testosterone levels, and that female and male levels overlap. They don't. Normal levels for males are 300–1,000 ng/dL, but only 15–70 ng/dL for women. Quite clearly different. This would also seem to be a valid test. Testing is the only way to avoid a free-for-all.

We need to remember WHY we have female sports, toilets, changing rooms etc. in the first place - to give women the opportunity to compete with each other rather than stronger men, and to keep women safe.

We also need to agree that everyone can dress however they like within decency rules, and behave however they like within the law. So if a man wants to behave as a stereotypical female - that's fine. As is a woman who wants to be butch.

Finally, in trying to be fair to minorities, we should not make things unfair or unsafe for the majority.

PS. And stop with the 'assigned' a sex/gender at birth. Your sex/gender is observed. Doctors go by what they SEE, not some arbitrary choice!

I’m pretty sure calling me a Terf and a bigot isn’t allowed….

Please define the word "woman" without referring to any of the following then:

• biological sex
• stereotypes
• an individual person's subjective feelings

In other words, body dysphoria which is a mental health condition.

So variable as to render the term 'gender' meaningless.

Excellent! We're back to 'sex' again 😃

Oof. Existential crisis here!
How do I know what my gender identity / subconscious sex is?
I'm not going to need a decade on a psychoanalyst's couch am I?

This “knowing” is at a subconscious level and it can’t be changed by any external information- eg objective knowledge about the body , sex categories etc.

It's not knowing then, is it? It's belief, or misapprehension.

Why would I do such a thing? What a curious task to set me.

Very good question. But some people do. Thats why “subconscious sex” is a better term than gender ID. This “knowing” is at a subconscious level and it can’t be changed by any external information- eg objective knowledge about the body , sex categories etc.

So it's like a religious belief, then?

So when you stated earlier that you agreed with the current policy were you mistaken, lying or showing your total lack of knowledge? Because many of the rules do exclude DSD men and men with trans identities.

Feel free to do your weird passive aggressive bolding thing it sooo cute.

It’s a subconscious recognition of self.

“Belief” doesn’t really capture it I would say, as beliefs can be changed through external information, they are more superficial.

you can call it a “misapprehension “ if you like, but that’s just a subjective value judgement.

I assume you don’t have some new knowledge that any of this can be tested for and proven and instead just relies on magical thinking.

Look, if you’re trying to convince women that we should forget about biological sex and we all just be whatever gender we want, with no definitions or defining characterises, maybe you can tell us how it would make life better for us? How would having no sport, no record of sex based violence or rape being a male crime committed against female in the large, pretending someone with a penis isn’t statistically more dangerous, sharing prison cells with male rapists, improve our lives?

Subconscious recognition of self

So something you make up in your head?

Like when a toddler has an imaginary friend ? Very real and important to them but clearly nonsense

But "women" is a category.

What does your subconscious sense of self have to do with whether you belong in a category which includes about half the human population?

Yes I didn’t realise trans women had been banned from female athletics. I thought they were allowed to participate with testosterone testing.

And I speak as some one who did think something was wrong as she was a bit really

I know it's just your head processing things - it's not real in the way sex is real

Getting your testosterone level to only five times the maximum level for a woman doesn't level the playing field. Even getting your testosterone level to the actual maximum level for a woman (which is impossible) doesn't reverse the effects of having gone through a testosterone driven male puberty.

Again you can all call this “nonsence” “imaginary thinking” etc all you want. All these are are value judgements. They don’t change the existence or lived realities of trans people.

The existence and lived realities of trans people don't change the completely separate existence and lived realities of women.

you can call it a “misapprehension “ if you like, but that’s just a subjective value judgement.

No it's not. If, as you say,

"it can’t be changed by any external information- eg objective knowledge about the body"

then it cannot be objectively true.