Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

This is an example of one of the many reasons that sport should be sex segregated -

www.boysvswomen.com

And that's not to say that the women featured in those rankings are 'weak or feeble or helpless'. They are Olympic athletes. but that if they were competing against someone male, who had gone through male puberty, that they wouldn't place. It says again and again 'None of the women's finals performances met the qualifying time to enter the boys' competition.'

Oh I know Tandora isn’t a feminist. She thinks men are women if they say so. No feminist believes that.

The mixed swimming illustrated perfectly the need to protect women’s sports (well women’s everything).
Just the teams waking in demonstrated the extreme physical differences well.

Yes this.
Then women's professional sport will be dead and all the men that were winning in the women's category will disappear into oblivion too.
Who wins?

Yes, I've read some of the article. She is complaining that women in gymnastics wear little swimsuit- like outfits and the men wear a top and long trousers. Also she says that women's events (like rhythmic gymnastics) aren't given the same media attention as men's football. Then she points out that tennis is five sets for men but only three for women, and that Serena Williams for example could surely manage five. All good. That some women are actually more powerful than some men ( not sure if that's relevant here - weakling men in the Olympics?). But - she then argues for integrated sports, with divisions based on competitors' height, weight, hormone levels, and other factors. Well lovely, but sounds a bit complicated, doesn't it? Why not do it by sex?

There are mixed sports but they are limited

it’s not strength but skeletal differences, arm length etc

but I think you know all of this and you’re being a wind up merchant to get some screen shots about how rude mumsnetters are

OP has made claims about expertise in a number of areas. Apparently a PhD in something relevant to developmental biology, experience working with lots of people with DSD's, a lifetime, both personally and professionally dedicated to combating male violence against women and girls and she's a first rate feminist too.

We should sit up, shut up and take notice; we might learn something.

as well as sex segregation in other domains

And the problem with that is? When sex matters for segregation it matters.

i also wonder if we should stratify based on a range of nuanced criteria, rather than binary sex

Like what? Hair colour perhaps? Or eye colour?

Note you now admit that sex is indeed binary.

No! And i wouldn’t be happy to get in the boxing ring with that Italian female boxer either!

Note you now admit that sex is indeed binary

lol nice try.

By all means take a break then……

Bollocks.

Bullshit. That's conflating "gender" aka stereotypes with actual sexed bodies, male and female, which are very different. It's only men who benefit from pretending either that there are no differences, therefore they can compete in women's sport, or that their greater physical advantages mean women should be kept out of all fields of work and pushed back to the home. You're going along with the same old "heads I win, tails you lose" men have always pushed.

“OP has made claims about expertise in a number of areas. Apparently a PhD in something relevant to developmental biology, experience working with lots of people with DSD's, a lifetime, both personally and professionally dedicated to combating male violence against women and girls and she's a first rate feminist too”

Guaranteed not one iota of that is true

👍🏻 I agree with all this.

But - she then argues for integrated sports, with divisions based on competitors' height, weight, hormone levels, and other factors.

this is what I think should be done as well.

I don't think you'll win anyone over with that article OP. There was a great infographic shared up thread which explains why it's a good idea to split many sports by biological sex, though. To just about everyone on the thread, this makes sense!

I have a PhD in a related health field yes and I work in scientific research. I don’t want to explain too many details as potential outing .
You are welcome to believe this or not.

i know very little about professional sports.

yes im a feminist.

But males have distinct physiological advantages over women. It doesn't matter that you are the same height or weight, a man is still faster and stronger at the top level.

Are Muslim women celebrating this boxer? Are male Muslim leaders celebrating this boxer. What are they saying about the lack of modest dress. Apparently this boxer claims Allah's support for the win without modest dress? That's interesting as a feminist OP? Aren't you celebrating that Allah is behind a female boxer that doesn't wear a hijab? Isn't that important for the liberation of women from oppression from religious clothing imposed on them against their will OP

What have you to say about this Olympic women's medal winner as a Muslim feminist icon?

I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels.

what you are basically saying here is that there should be no sex based classifications in sport. If any man can join a women’s classification by saying they are a trans woman then there is no point having sex classifications, they are meaningless. There are plenty of sports where there are no sex based clarifications, because men don’t have an advantage, where men and women compete separately, it’s for a reason.

look at the world record times / heights / lengths for athletic sports for men and women. They are wildly to each other. My friend is a great 800m runner. He wins university stuff but he’s nowhere near being world class. If he were at the Olympics he’d win the gold medal if he competed against the women. He’s 20 and has only been training seriously for a year. He’d beat the best women in the world because he’s a man. How is that fair to the women he would be competing against?

That's insane. Do they not understand the difference between sex differences and gender stereotyping?
Making women compete against men, is far more likely to be harmful. We wouldn't even have women's football, say, if they could only play against men- that would reinforce the stereotype that women just can't do it. Equity is fair.

wonderful perspective and post

Why on earth not? After all, if there shouldn't be any sex segregation in sports then they should also do away with all other segregation too? Like weight classes in boxing for example. I'm sure you're more than capable of taking on Tyson Fury!

This is like saying, in reverse, that if biological men want equal rights to women in pay and total equality they should grow and give birth to the human race same as women. They aren’t women and can’t. This fact doesn’t make men lesser just because they are not able to grow a human being. We are not biologically the same but women and men deserve equity.