Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

So your point about them being "girls" and "boys" sports is totally irrelevant.

@Tandora

"
But look at the horrible arguments that are being had over who qualifies as a woman, and the damage it’s doing to some women’s lives, and trans and DSD issues in general"

This is not because it is too complex to achieve, it's because the IOC have weaselled out of taking responsibility for deciding and implementing fair and consistent rules. Instead they've left it up to each sports organising bodies to decide, and boxing has particularly divided and sometimes chaotic international organisations. Hence the fuck up that's happened.

Why?

Surely people should have the freedom to choose and play the sports that they wish to, that have safety standards that are regularly reviewed and updated, without having to justify to people who don't like competitive sport or particular sports.

That is authoritarian.

yes I am. You don’t get to define feminism or police who is and isn’t a feminist.

You knowledge of feminism and being a feminist is as scant as your knowledge about sport.

NO feminist would advocate for Julien Alfred to be denied of her opportunity to win an Olympic Gold medal and that is what you are doing with this nonsense about non sex segregated sport.

And for the poster who asked about motor car racing and snooker - yes there is indeed male advantage in both those disciplines.

I don’t know much about sport but i know a hella lot more than the vast majority of mumsnetters about trans issues and dsds. So no, I won’t be rethinking that.

what I’m interested in thinking about is whether sex segregation in sports should happen at all, when /
in what circumstances it should happen, and if we should start using more nuanced/ diff criteria.

From the evidence we have available, it seems that the IOC (and a lot of sporting bodies and governments) think that women's fairness, dignity and physical safety are well worth throwing away, in order to spare a few mens feelings yes.

The IOC used to sex test athletes by means of a cheek swab. They polled female athletes on whether they should continue, and the majority said they wanted it to continue. They stopped anyway, because they deliberately decided that fairness to women wasn't as important as 'inclusion' to males with DSDs or gender feelz. They threw women's sport and women's safety and women's inclusion away, deliberately.

I am a feminist and I know a lot about feminism.

the height of by he hurdles is lower for women than men because women are shorter than men. If we put them all together we are either making it harder for women or easier for men. End result is an all men final.

That happens in mixed Volleyball, the net is set to a level that is above the women's net height and below the men's. Which means that usually the women get to play setters while the men get to do the fun attack stuff that requires jumping.

Any attention is good attention .. sigh.

But I do admire the posters continuing to valiantly respond.

@Tandora why are you mixing up sexism in sporting access with mixed sex sporting competitions? It's two different things.

Women have access to previously male-only sports due to pressure from activist women, often explicitly feminist, who pushed and fought for it. Which is as it should be. That's got fuck all to do with whether or not any specific sport should be categorised by sex. Which nearly all of them should be, for fairness and for equal access reasons.

what I’m interested in thinking about is whether sex segregation in sports should happen at all, when it should happen, and if we should start using more nuanced/ diff criteria.

And the answer you're hearing loud and clear is:

1. no
2. never
3. what would we gain from this that would justify the expense and difficulty?

OP if we didn't sex segregate sports, how many women do you think we would be seeing at the Olympics this fortnight?

If we didn't have separate women's football teams, how many actual women footballers do you think we would see?

Dying 💀

You prioritise men's feelings over women's rights. You're the exact opposite of a feminist and you know it.

OP I believe the results of your poll speak for themselves. 💅

Sure they are two separate issues.

let’s move on. The thread was supposed to be about sex segregation in sports (so not allowing women to compete with men). As per the article

Off you pop then op

Thank you I should it would be better for my mental health

I am a feminist and I know a lot about feminism.

No you are not and no you do not.

what I’m interested in thinking about is whether sex segregation in sports should happen at all, when /
in what circumstances it should happen, and if we should start using more nuanced/ diff criteria

Yes sport should be sex segregated. Nuanced criteria are already there in certain sports.

You can stop thinking now.

yes I am. You don’t get to define feminism or police who is and isn’t a feminist.

FFS, feminism is not just "I believe some nice things that might vaguely sound like equality for women". It's a political and philosophical theory about how women are impacted by patriarchy and what should be done about it. There are numerous disagreements within it, and a massive breadth of feminist thought, but in the same way you aren't a conservative if you believe in violent revolution, or aren't an anarchist if you think having a police force is overall a good thing, you aren't a feminist if you don't see the misogyny and impact of patriarchy in what you've been arguing in this thread or others. You're obviously free to believe it, but we're right to point out it's not something that can be accurately described as feminism, in the same way as Liz Truss can't accurately be described as socialist.

I am a feminist

Trans issues have nothing to do with DSDs. Rare medical conditions and personal identities are nothing alike. So forgive me if I have similar respect for your self identified expertise in both as I do for the PhD in developmental biology you claimed to have on a previous thread.

This blog by a person with a DSD may be interesting to some without OPs extensive expertise:
https://differently-normal.com/

😂😂😂

Like Nicola sturgeon was a feminist to her fingertips 🤣🙈🤣

The thread was supposed to be about sex segregation in sports (so not allowing women to compete with men).

You have it backwards. The segregation is to prevent men competing with women!

You introduced the confusion @Tandora ... but glad you've recognised the conflation.

I worry about the standard of PhDs these days...

Pretending men can be women is not feminism, it's male supremacism.