Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

So we can understand what you think a woman is, if not based on either sex or stereotypes.

I didn’t suggest they did

How can anyone know if their inner feelings are male or female? How can anyone know if they think like a typical male or female? No one knows how other people feel or think inside their head as the only reference point anyone has is how they themselves think and feel.

It's fascinating that despite these super magical. all knowing, subconscious, secret female feels they have they all behave exactly like every other sexist bloke on the planet. Often worse.

Why is that?

So how do we discuss the existence and lived experience of women if we're not allowed a word for women which doesn't also include members of the opposite sex?

Before the thread closes I just wanted to highlight this post from OP some 20 pages back, as I think it's the crux of OPs position.

Harm to males' feelings is more important than harm to women's feelings or safety. A TW being 'outed' on a women's hospital ward is worse than a woman being scared or hurt. On a hospital ward, on the sports field, boxing ring whatever.

Mens feelings are more important. That's it.

But you don't approve of sex tests (which is effectively what testosterone testing is) so how could you agree with a policy that requires testing?

Oh and it's not just athletics.

Exactly.

I could have a subconscious sense of being anything though, it wouldn't mean I actually was. And to bring this back to the original question - creating any kind of division within sport is meaningless, if it's a self identified category.

None of this means we shouldn't respect an individual'a beliefs about who they are. But when it conflicts with reality and impinges the rights of others, there has to be a way to communicate that and for material reality to be respected.

Almost all of us know whether we are male or female; for most people that knowing matches their biological sex, for some it doesn’t

Being a woman can only be described as being a female human who has reached adulthood. And being female is based on having a body formed around the production of large gametes, even if those gametes are never produced.

There is absolutely no stereotyping needed to describe a woman. It is false to say that males who describe themselves as a woman ‘defy stereotypes’.

It is the opposite.

A male who describes themselves as a woman is either doing so because they reject the concept of being a man or boy, or they are describing themselves based on their personal concept of what being a female means. And they have no experience of being a female at all. So they have to conceptualise it. Based on their personal perceptions of women.

This is misogynistic in that instance. Because it is a male using their own concept of what being a female human is to suit their own needs.

Sorry you don't comprehend the concept of irony and the fact you aren't enough of a trans ally....

So if I know I'm female because I have female anatomy, and someone else "knows" they are female because they, I don't know, like the colour pink, we're not knowing the same thing, are we?

You can't know you're female if you're not a member of the female sex, because that's what female is. Female has got absolutely fuck all to do with feelings.

Almost all of us know whether we are male or female; for most people that knowing matches their biological sex, for some it doesn’t

We know because of our biological sex!

Bullshit.

That's gender stereotypes.

That's not sex.

Sex is not a concept you can buy into or out of. It's not feelings in your head. It's a reality.

you are right I wasn’t clear. I was thinking of sex testing for women registered female at birth. I’m not sure what I think about testosterone testing for trans women. I’ll have to reflect more on that. I think I don’t agree with this but also recognise the problems it could theoretically generate. Although how many athletes would legally change gender to win medals in female sports?! Seems far fetched to me.

A male who describes themselves as a woman is either doing so because they reject the concept of being a man or boy, or they are describing themselves based on their personal concept of what being a female means. And they have no experience of being a female at all. So they have to conceptualise it. Based on their personal perceptions of women.

This is misogynistic in that instance. Because it is a male using their own concept of what being a female human is to suit their own needs.

This 👆🏻it can't be said enough! 👏

Because, as I said in my above post, when I wrote previously about male and female referring to the role in sexual reproduction, you wrote ‘they don’t have a ‘role’ in reproduction’ .

What was the ‘they’ you were referring to then?

Perhaps. Nobody really understands fully the aetiology of gender id development . But we know that for trans people this isn’t the case, as their gender id doesn’t develop as expected.

Did we get any of this evidence?? At all? Or is it just all theory and philosophy?

Can you please link us to the evidence where a male at any stage of transition has less risk of committing a sexual offence than any other male person in the UK?

Then, can you please link us to the evidence where a male at any stage of transition has less or the same risk of committing a sexual offence as any female person in the UK?

Because it seems to me that you have some special knowledge that male people with a transgender identity should be exempt from safeguarding measures.

Adding this here because I cannot add another post:

Forgot to add, those male people’s ‘conceptialisations’ of what being a girl / woman is can only come through observation and the collection of parameters. If that ain’t stereotyping, I don’t know what is!

Male people use stereotypes to enable them to ‘identify’ as women.

@Tandora

the existence of the majority of trans women enforces stereotypes. and those stereotypes are what one of many things that prevented you from playing football/certain sports as a child.

So you don't actually have a fucking clue what you are talking about or what decision have been made and why. And in which sports.

Thanks for confirming that.

So great no sex tests, so can any man enter the female category or just the special gendered ones?

Tandora. I know I am female because of my physical body. I can't know if I think or have the same inner feelings as other females.

Men are not women and do not belong in women's sport.

This is not degrading to women.