Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Actually we barely have women’s football because of sex segregation in sport. I know it’s changing more recently but I never had the opportunity to play football as a kid, it wasn’t considered a female sport.

You again.

I said it on the other thread. You believe women can have penises, so when you use the word "women", it's effectively meaningless. You advocate pitting male people against female people in boxing rings and you don't care about the resulting injuries and risks - and you say it's not a violence against women issue. You are wilfully obtuse about the fact that elite female performance is equivalent to mediocre or poor male performance, as they don't have male advantage, and try to paint it as somehow being an insult to female athletes. You asked what the point of female athletes was if males could beat them.

Your "feminism" isn't feminism. It's male supremacism and your arguments, such as they are, are all based in fallacy, Newspeak, deflection, obfuscation, denial and argument by assertion. There is literally nothing else to them.

'nuanced criteria'.

Like feelz.

Equestrianism isn't sex segregated, for good reason.

Boxing is sex segregated, for good reason. It is also classified into weight categories You know, for nuance.

Actually we barely have women’s football because of sex segregation in sport. I know it’s changing more recently but I never had the opportunity to play football as a kid, it wasn’t considered a female sport.

What a good job we do have segregated women's football, then, or we'd still be there now watching the menz do it all for us

Fucking hell the ignorance is extreme. We don't have well established women's football not because of sex segregation, but instead because the FA banned women from playing football in FA facilities and in FA regulated competitions for decades. Because women's football had become too popular and matches too well attended! I am not surprised you are ignorant of this, @Tandora

Are you saying if there was no sex segregation you would have been playing against David Beckham, but those nasty feminists stopped you? Yet you wouldn't get in a boxing ring with Tyson Fury, why?

I know very little about professional sports

And it shows.

Sex is the largest differentiator of athletic ability. So even if we did segregate by height and weight, we'd need another may of differentiating men and women. So we could use body fat, muscle mass, hip ratio, testosterone levels... which would just be a proxy to segregating by sex. I fail to see how this hugely complicated system would be an improvement over sex segregation.

its not just testosterone. That’s really simplistic

take the hurdles as an example.

the height of by he hurdles is lower for women than men because women are shorter than men. If we put them all together we are either making it harder for women or easier for men. End result is an all men final.

snooker - men have a longer arm span so they have an advantage

cycling - the way hips are shaped means men get much more power than women regardless of strength

and then we get into societal issues as pp has raised - girls have had far less opportunity so to get to the top in non segregated sport is even harder. Hopefully in the future that won’t be an issue but this is limited sports

Exactly, because we couldn't beat men at it. It's changing now, as we have separate teams. What is wrong with you?
You seem to think the only difference is testosterone levels?

I don’t want to get in trouble with mumsnet , so all I will say is this post is barmy and I shan’t be engaging with you .

A person would have to be pretty thick if they can't understand why, in general, sport needs to be segregated by sex.

I guess the PhD "in a related field" didn't include football

Exactly, because we couldn't beat men at it

er no, because there were different sports designated for boys and girls.

why are you asking “what’s wrong” with me?
I have a different opinion, I shared an interesting article. You may like to read it.

It did not.

Christ, you've started ANOTHER thread about this? Are you going for the SNP Indyref option of asking the same question again and again until we give what you consider to be the correct answer?

I'm as feminist as they come. I want sex segregation in all sports where it matters - there are very few where it doesn't (equestrianism being the only Olympic sports, because the ultimate athleticism comes from the horse). And sex is based on chromosomes.

I couldn't give one shiny shit how someone:

• was raised,
• was perceived at birth;
• was socialised;
• identifies;

Or whether they:

• are trans;
• have a DSD

Men are those with XY chromosomes and they have no place in women's sport.

For those who are trans, no-one changes sex. For those with DSDs, you cannot choose how your are born and raised, but you can choose not to cheat and if you are in a women's sport when you have XY chromosomes then you ARE a cheat.

Well that’s v interesting!

There you go OP, if you're going to spout shite at least do a little research! So you don't end up looking ridiculous!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_association_football

But - she then argues for integrated sports, with divisions based on competitors' height, weight, hormone levels, and other factors.

Brilliant. Add in chromosomes, the genetics determining a lot of tweaks that make female and male bodies different and you have a deal.

You will also find that it is complicated, expensive as everybody needs to be retested at every event, difficult to manage and you will end up with roughly the same division as sex.

Now please tell me WHY we need to deviate from the sex binary division to something so complicated? Who does this benefit? Does it benefit women as a class?

I didn't learn football or rugby at school and we didn't play it in the playground. Girls played hockey and netball, boys didn't.

However there are mixed sex sports such as curling, tennis doubles, swimming etc Women and men compete together.

World rugby have banned women and men playing together because a woman could be killed by a man. It's not just speed which is the problem, it's sheer strength. A transwoman boxer broke the skull of a female boxer a few years ago.

i know very little about professional sports.

That's blatantly obvious.

yes im a feminist.

No, you are not. Today Julien Alfred from the tiny island of St. Lucia won the women's 100m gold medal in a time of 10.72, that time wouldn't even have seen her qualify for the men's 100m. This is the first time anyone from that island has won a medal at the Olympics and you want to take that opportunity away from her and other women like her. That is as far from feminist as you can get.

It would mean that we miss out on all of the great sporting women's hero's and role models, for example Serena Williams would be ranked 70th if the sexes were mixed wheras she is a great role model for women.

I think if you really are a feminist as you say then you have to realise that our bodies are to an extent linked to our lower status worldwide, rape and domestic violence would not take place if we were the same body strength as men it's obvious really.

Which sports do you want to make unisex because when you say oh we should mix 'some' sports what 'nuanced criateria' would you choose and which men would enforce this, the disgusting Olympic Commitee??
the problem is Transactivists take over sporting committees and subvert the rules, we are very drained now, if you give an inch they take a mile, we're done.

So no expertise but confident statements about football. Just like...all the other statements then. Glad we cleared that up. What a pointless thread.