Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

Sadly, any suggestions for reading or expert input must fit the narrow anti-fash parameters open to mischaractisation. . Anyone who has supported women’s sports being maintained as a protected category is highly likely to fail!

I am never mistreated for my femininity but for my femaleness
Often mistreatment comes from my lack of femininity and my refusal to conform

I am not alike to transwomen because we are all feminine - because I don't see myself as feminine

By assuming women are feminine as a default you are being rude and sexist

Not at all, logic of misogyny and how it targets GNC (non feminine women) above.

So why are you blathering on about GNC women and lesbians at all then?

It's about sex not gender!

I got called misogynistic for referring to someone’s posts as “rambling” earlier. (Don’t see how this is misogynistic but does the same go for “blathering”?

I was going to add that transwomen are actually harder to identify but also are more likely to be transparent. Also men find it much harder to pick up on non visual cues so are more likely to miss trans individuals.
I have a long winded story regarding this but can’t be bothered to recount it.
Summarised, show a group of men a photo of a transwomen and 100% will identify them as female, show the same photo to a group of women and 100% will identify them as male. Interestingly all of the men knew the trans woman as a man, admitted that they looked very familiar but still didn’t make the connection.
The individual in question had been competing in international women’s sport for a decade. They had transitioned abroad, orchestrated a rather glamorous death of their male persona and returned to the UK with a new identity. Years later they made contact with an old friend, but did not let on they who they were. Old friend sussed it out. They made no further contact.
So they have successfully competed at high level sport, won medals and cheated multiple women out of those medals.
They took advantage of the lack of sex testing during the 90s/20s and clarity within sport.

Not at all, logic of misogyny and how it targets GNC (non feminine women) above.

Your 'logic' isnt correct though. Maybe you should believe women who've experienced misogyny on this one?
Misogyny targets 'feminine' women and GNC women. It targets women for reasons completely separate from their 'femininity' or lack thereof (women entering 'male' professions for instance....'femininity' is such a surface characteristic).

*turn them straight and experience sexual domination by a man. horrific

“You're making that argument re 'femininity' far too complicated. Misogynistic men think women are inferior because of our sex.”

I remember reading the horrific account of a female transgender person who believed that telling their rapist that they were a man would stop the horror that was happening.

Sex. It is the basis of misogyny.

Which rules?
The brave bold IOC were too scared to tackle the issue so has passed the matter to individual sports many of which have barred anyone who has undergone male puberty (regardless of their feelings) from the female category.
So do you agree with swimming, triathlon, rugby etc or do you agree with boxing (but just Olympic boxing as the IBA and WBO have XX policies)?

Your 'logic' isnt correct though
will have to disagree on that one I suppose.

Im not denying any women’s experiences of misogyny, I’m simply analysing the logics through which misogyny sustains itself and targets all women, including feminine, gnc and trans women. And trans men who don’t “pass”.

You are blathering.

You can't string a coherent argument together.

It's not about what sex you are.

It's also not a gendered word.

They don’t have a “role” in reproduction . (. What’s the “role” of homosexuality in “reproduction”?)

This quote from you above I think best illustrates the way you have to recreate reality to make your argument make sense. You wrote this in response to me saying make and female relates to one’s role in sexual reproduction. Here you are explicitly stating that you reject that male and female sexes have a role in reproduction. Which is a manifestly untrue assertion. If you have to make manifestly untrue statements to make your case, you should really have the honesty and integrity to admit you do not have a case.

There is no analogy with sexuality. No matter how much you try to state there is to bolster a thin case. Gay and lesbian people are male or female, just as infertile people are, celibate people and children.

for some individuals, there is ambiguity as to where they rightfully belong in binary sex categories- male / female. This isn’t just a “knowledge” problem- ie the sex of people is hard to “identify”, it’s a problem with how we define “sex” itself

It really isn’t. Sex relates to one’s potential role in reproduction, in terms of being male or female. What is really going on is that some people like you are desperate for political and ideological purposes to deny the sex binary as this fits your wider goals to replace the organisation of the society based on sex. Thing is, you don’t really have a good case for that, so you grab onto rare disorders of the male and female sex and claim it means there is not really a male or female sex, and male and female doesn’t really have a role in reproduction and anyway, isn’t this a bit like being gay? The only people who make this rather far fetched case are people who have a political and ideological motivation for doing so.

You are blathering. You can't string a coherent argument together.

Here you are explicitly stating that you reject that male and female sexes have a role in reproduction.

I stopped here as I’m unbelievably confused why you wrote / think this.

Misogynists don't care what you look like, they hate women.

Agree. (Well they do care what you look like but they wil hate you regardless).

I think I can.

In fact. I think there are many posts on this subject that show I can.

I just can't be arsed to engage with you at this present time because you have come out with such a level of incomprehensible nonsense which has depth to it other than 'because I think'.

It's total at odds with science and every historical battle that feminists have fought.

Feminism isn't about being 'equal to men'. It is about recognising we are different and have different strengths and not being harmed as a result of those differences. Whether that be emotionally, physically or financially.

It about resisting the concept of 'default human' which is male and actively makes life harder and more difficult for women.

Misogyny stems from ownership of women and the concept that women must fit into the wants and needs of men without regards to how it impacts women.

Try harder.

In the meantime there are plenty of my posts expanding on this if you can be bothered to even try to understand what feminism is.

At it's most simple it's about women not being allowed to define who and what a woman is. It is being imposed by males.

Sorry I was just quoting what you said to me to highlight it, not saying the same as you:

Feminism isn't about being 'equal to men It is about recognising we are different’

. Well that’s a bold statement! Thats one brand of “feminism” I suppose, although I think even difference feminists include an element about equality..

I actually took your claim to be knowledgeble about trans issues at face value so I'm astonished at the ignorance you display here.
I speak from my experience as a nurse.
Anyone who advises a trans woman who is sick enough to need addmitting to hospital to withhold any of her medical history from staff is a very strange sort of ally indeed.
Hospital staff are perfectly capable of caring respectfully for trans patients, and for the small number of trans women who do not disclose to many people that they are male the most discrete way of doing this is to give them a private room. Otherwise a whole ward will hear conversations about their oestrogen treatment, their surgical history, or any other healthcare needs specific to trans women.
It's really odd to claim expertise in this area when you are clearly so misinformed about the health care needs of trans women.

I worry about the impact that it has on gender stereotypes, reinforcing simplistic binary ideas about gender, perceptions of female inferiority, and the denigration of female sports in general.
Why do you think see women winning at sports, particularly those that are not regarded as 'feminine' such as boxing, weightlifting, shot putt etc re-enforces gender stereotypes?
It shows women of all shapes and sizes have value, that you don't have to be tiny and graceful to be female. Sport allows women to display their strength (both physical and mental) their bravery (from Simone Biles vaulting again after the Twisties to the woman hurtling down the bike tracks) I have watched amazing and inspiring women all week.
If there was no female category there would be no female representation in the vast majority of sports. Hey girls you can't dream of making it in rowing, athletics, cycling, fighting sports, team sports or many others but there's always equestrianism and the synchro swimming.

As far as I can see, you haven't replied to my post which was specifically discussing the article and at least another one poster who did the same.

I mean, fair enough, you may have missed both those posts but that's probably because you've seemed far more interested in bolding any post who doesn't agree with you.

We get it Tandora, you’re a male supremacist, you’ll find a more agreeable crowd on an incel forum.

Anyone who advises a trans woman who is sick enough to need addmitting to hospital to withhold any of her medical history from staff is a very strange sort of ally indeed

I didn’t advise this at all.

Hospital staff are perfectly capable of caring respectfully for trans patients

many trans people disagree with you there I’m afraid.