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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Feminists against sex segregation in sports

1000 replies

Tandora · 03/08/2024 21:22

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
justbeingasmartarse · 04/08/2024 11:00

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy

Female athletes are not strong enough to win a boxing match against someone who is biologically male. Not really rocket science.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:01

Naunet · 04/08/2024 10:58

We get it Tandora, you’re a male supremacist, you’ll find a more agreeable crowd on an incel forum.

We get it Tandora, you’re a male supremacist, you’ll find a more agreeable crowd on an incel forum

OP posts:
Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:02

Waitwhat23 · 04/08/2024 10:58

As far as I can see, you haven't replied to my post which was specifically discussing the article and at least another one poster who did the same.

I mean, fair enough, you may have missed both those posts but that's probably because you've seemed far more interested in bolding any post who doesn't agree with you.

Sorry I was trying last night but I’m a bit lost this morning with speed of posts and the convo around sports as a lot of discussing individual names etc I am not familiar with

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 04/08/2024 11:03

justbeingasmartarse · 04/08/2024 11:00

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy

Female athletes are not strong enough to win a boxing match against someone who is biologically male. Not really rocket science.

Given that elite female athletes are talking for themselves about how they feel degraded for not being listened to over sex and then being blackmailed to apologise or lose their careers it's fascinating.

I find it fascinating to see virtue signaller speaking on behalf of trans people and of elite sports women. And then shouting bigot every five seconds.

justbeingasmartarse · 04/08/2024 11:04

there is plenty of evidence that the development of sex produces differences in bodies that mean that , for some individuals, there is ambiguity as to where they rightfully belong in binary sex categories- male / female

Biological sex is binary I’m afraid. I know some people are born intersex but most are not.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/08/2024 11:08

Feminism isn't about being 'equal to men It is about recognising we are different’

. Well that’s a bold statement! Thats one brand of “feminism” I suppose, although I think even difference feminists include an element about equality..

'Equality' in contexts where there is a sexed difference doesn't mean you put men and women together. Equality in sports is recognising dimorphism, having men's and women's events, funding and promoting them equally. We're still a long way off that I'm afraid.

OvaHere · 04/08/2024 11:08

Tandora · 04/08/2024 10:57

Sorry I was just quoting what you said to me to highlight it, not saying the same as you:

Feminism isn't about being 'equal to men It is about recognising we are different’

. Well that’s a bold statement! Thats one brand of “feminism” I suppose, although I think even difference feminists include an element about equality..

Edited

It's not bold at all. That poster is talking about the concept of Equity which has been around for a long time now and is different to Equality in that it recognises that people have different starting points and different disadvantages in life.

Women can't be equal to men because we are not the same and actually it's not something we should aspire to because men aren't all that great are they? (98% of violent and sexual crimes?).

We should aspire to equitable treatment in society based on us being women and what being a woman means separate from men.

VP Kamala Harris talks about it a lot. Presumably you'll consider Harris a reputable feminist as she also has pronouns.

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:09

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:00

Anyone who advises a trans woman who is sick enough to need addmitting to hospital to withhold any of her medical history from staff is a very strange sort of ally indeed

I didn’t advise this at all.

Hospital staff are perfectly capable of caring respectfully for trans patients

many trans people disagree with you there I’m afraid.

I do however think that whatever trans people share/ disclose with medical staff should be on their own terms and not related to needing to be segregated in a private room because other women view them as predators.

OP posts:
TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 04/08/2024 11:09

Only a misogynist or a fool (or a combination of the two) thinks "woman" is something a man can be.

Exactly. Our Tandora? He's a perfect mix of the above, with his "PhD" and "peer reviewed papers" 😆

Whereas lil ol' me?

"I've got a degree in Economics:
Maths, Physics and Bionics" 🎼

Name that tune. Artist and title. No Googling 😊

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:10

OvaHere · 04/08/2024 11:08

It's not bold at all. That poster is talking about the concept of Equity which has been around for a long time now and is different to Equality in that it recognises that people have different starting points and different disadvantages in life.

Women can't be equal to men because we are not the same and actually it's not something we should aspire to because men aren't all that great are they? (98% of violent and sexual crimes?).

We should aspire to equitable treatment in society based on us being women and what being a woman means separate from men.

VP Kamala Harris talks about it a lot. Presumably you'll consider Harris a reputable feminist as she also has pronouns.

Thank you for schooling me on equality and equity. I am very familiar. i maintain that poster’s statement was a bold claim. Perhaps compatible with one particular brand of (difference) feminism, but missing some components even then.

OP posts:
Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:11

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 04/08/2024 11:09

Only a misogynist or a fool (or a combination of the two) thinks "woman" is something a man can be.

Exactly. Our Tandora? He's a perfect mix of the above, with his "PhD" and "peer reviewed papers" 😆

Whereas lil ol' me?

"I've got a degree in Economics:
Maths, Physics and Bionics" 🎼

Name that tune. Artist and title. No Googling 😊

Our Tandora? He's a perfect mix of the above, with his "PhD" and "peer reviewed papers" 😆

OP posts:
Naunet · 04/08/2024 11:11

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:09

I do however think that whatever trans people share/ disclose with medical staff should be on their own terms and not related to needing to be segregated in a private room because other women view them as predators.

I think they should be with other men rather than getting special treatment, it’s not womens problem they see their fellow males as predators

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:12

Naunet · 04/08/2024 11:11

I think they should be with other men rather than getting special treatment, it’s not womens problem they see their fellow males as predators

Edited

Trans women are not men. What you say is incompatible with respect for the dignity and humanity of trans women.

OP posts:
PermanentTemporary · 04/08/2024 11:13

I understand that nice people don't enjoy horrible spectacles like the current furore in the Olympic women's boxing. I agfee that the focus on individual athletes is horrific, and leads to trial by photograph,which is ludicrous and deeply unfeminist; ive seen female athletes go through the same, including on MN, though you might notice that those threads get big numbers of responses telling the posters they're wrong. I can see why people decide that we should just eliminate all sex categories to avoid this awfulness.

The focus should be in the weakness of the IOC processes in this one area, not on individual athletes or on eliminating meaningful categories. Every athlete at the Olympics has to reach a qualifying standard. In order to have meaningful, high level competition over a big range of sports, that's the route they have gone down. They could have a small number of sports and welcome all comers, with huge numbers of heats until the top competitors emerge. But they don't. To become an Olympian, you have to prove your ability. The IOC has no problem imposing that. They also impose and confirm weight limits where appropriate. They also ensure drug testing. All fine.

But in sex... no. The IOC just say, as long as their passport says F, that's fine. It's pathetic. Essentially the experience of one athlete with a DSD (no idea which DSD and it doesn't matter) who battled endlessly to have their documentation sex accepted despite failing gender tests, and who became part of the IOC committee addressing this, led to the 2003 decision that documentation sex was good enough, and because in 2003 there was no country that didn't require gender surgery for documentation change, surgical status was included in that decision. Since then, starting in the UK, surgical status has been progressively removed from transition documentation requirements in many countries, leading to the 2015 decision to stop requiring any surgical change in favour of hormonal change (headed up by Chris Mosier, a female athlete whose subsequent peak in open competition was doing OK but not excitingly in an Olympic trial). NOT ONCE in any of this process has women's sport been considered important in its own right - and to me this is where the IOC have failed, and why the article posted has looked in the wrong direction

I've told this story on here before. I was 16th once...

In my sport at university, there was a top rowing boat of 8 and a reserve boat of 8. I tried out for 6 months for the squad. I knew I was borderline, but found each week that I was surviving the cut of competitors (being in sport you're quite used to this sort of process). I did what I could, trained 4 hours a day, cut out alcohol etc, lived and breathed it. I just made it into the last place in the reserve boat, the 16th spot. And that changed everything for me; the experience of better coaching, better competition, better training, changed my life forever. (Incidentally, as a women's eight we did practice starts against a men's pair. Eight against two.)

In 2015 a transwoman was selected for that reserve boat. But I don't see that as wonderful inclusion, because I think about the woman who was excluded. If 2015 had been my year, she would have been me. The reality of my female body would have been ignored in favour of a male. That is NOT feminist and it's not sporting.

Women's sport is for women.

OvaHere · 04/08/2024 11:14

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:10

Thank you for schooling me on equality and equity. I am very familiar. i maintain that poster’s statement was a bold claim. Perhaps compatible with one particular brand of (difference) feminism, but missing some components even then.

You didn't give the impression of being familiar. I can't really work out what you're trying to say here. What missing components?

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 04/08/2024 11:15

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:12

Trans women are not men. What you say is incompatible with respect for the dignity and humanity of trans women.

Transwomen are precisely men. No more, no less!

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:15

PermanentTemporary · 04/08/2024 11:13

I understand that nice people don't enjoy horrible spectacles like the current furore in the Olympic women's boxing. I agfee that the focus on individual athletes is horrific, and leads to trial by photograph,which is ludicrous and deeply unfeminist; ive seen female athletes go through the same, including on MN, though you might notice that those threads get big numbers of responses telling the posters they're wrong. I can see why people decide that we should just eliminate all sex categories to avoid this awfulness.

The focus should be in the weakness of the IOC processes in this one area, not on individual athletes or on eliminating meaningful categories. Every athlete at the Olympics has to reach a qualifying standard. In order to have meaningful, high level competition over a big range of sports, that's the route they have gone down. They could have a small number of sports and welcome all comers, with huge numbers of heats until the top competitors emerge. But they don't. To become an Olympian, you have to prove your ability. The IOC has no problem imposing that. They also impose and confirm weight limits where appropriate. They also ensure drug testing. All fine.

But in sex... no. The IOC just say, as long as their passport says F, that's fine. It's pathetic. Essentially the experience of one athlete with a DSD (no idea which DSD and it doesn't matter) who battled endlessly to have their documentation sex accepted despite failing gender tests, and who became part of the IOC committee addressing this, led to the 2003 decision that documentation sex was good enough, and because in 2003 there was no country that didn't require gender surgery for documentation change, surgical status was included in that decision. Since then, starting in the UK, surgical status has been progressively removed from transition documentation requirements in many countries, leading to the 2015 decision to stop requiring any surgical change in favour of hormonal change (headed up by Chris Mosier, a female athlete whose subsequent peak in open competition was doing OK but not excitingly in an Olympic trial). NOT ONCE in any of this process has women's sport been considered important in its own right - and to me this is where the IOC have failed, and why the article posted has looked in the wrong direction

I've told this story on here before. I was 16th once...

In my sport at university, there was a top rowing boat of 8 and a reserve boat of 8. I tried out for 6 months for the squad. I knew I was borderline, but found each week that I was surviving the cut of competitors (being in sport you're quite used to this sort of process). I did what I could, trained 4 hours a day, cut out alcohol etc, lived and breathed it. I just made it into the last place in the reserve boat, the 16th spot. And that changed everything for me; the experience of better coaching, better competition, better training, changed my life forever. (Incidentally, as a women's eight we did practice starts against a men's pair. Eight against two.)

In 2015 a transwoman was selected for that reserve boat. But I don't see that as wonderful inclusion, because I think about the woman who was excluded. If 2015 had been my year, she would have been me. The reality of my female body would have been ignored in favour of a male. That is NOT feminist and it's not sporting.

Women's sport is for women.

Thanks for sharing your perspective

OP posts:
Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:15

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 04/08/2024 11:15

Transwomen are precisely men. No more, no less!

As above

OP posts:
Naunet · 04/08/2024 11:16

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:12

Trans women are not men. What you say is incompatible with respect for the dignity and humanity of trans women.

Yes they are men, it’s a biological fact I’m afraid. Nothing undignified about being with other males, men can be perfectly pleasant.

Treo · 04/08/2024 11:16

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:12

Trans women are not men. What you say is incompatible with respect for the dignity and humanity of trans women.

They are men, pretending they can change sex isn’t respectful to anyone, to women who are suppose to “budge up” in hospitals, prisons, sports and it’s not respectful to trans individuals selling this narrative.

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 04/08/2024 11:17

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:11

Our Tandora? He's a perfect mix of the above, with his "PhD" and "peer reviewed papers" 😆

Is that it? A laughing emoji?

You're a nasty man and you've hurt my feelings. I'm popping out for coffee to try and recover ☕

cupcaske123 · 04/08/2024 11:18

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:12

Trans women are not men. What you say is incompatible with respect for the dignity and humanity of trans women.

You can call Transwomen whatever you like, the fact remains that biological men are a threat to women. Not all Transwomen are predators but women shouldn't have to take the risk of finding out. Enough women have been sexually assaulted by Transwomen.

LilyBartsHatShop · 04/08/2024 11:19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_skiing#Notes

"For men, degree of difficulty scores range from 2.050 to 5.000 while scores range from 2.050 to 5.300 for women.[16] However, the degree of difficulty is capped to 5.0 for Olympic events.[2]"

I know nothing about skiing, I live many thousands of kilometers from the nearest ski slope.
But I've been told that women are able to complete aerial skiing jumps that are objectively more difficult than the men's.

Interesting that the Olympics caps the difficulty level at the male level. When they're such champions of the most marginalised women of all and all that.
[I really hope someone knowledgeable is able to fill in my argument here - I don't follow any competitive sports at all, and I hope I'm not making a fool of myself here with faulty understanding. Just want aerial skiing to get a mention before the thread fills up.]

Aerial skiing - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_skiing#Notes

Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:19

OvaHere · 04/08/2024 11:14

You didn't give the impression of being familiar. I can't really work out what you're trying to say here. What missing components?

There’s usually something about different but equal- in terms of moral worth, whatever. If you miss this element and just emphasize that women are different and in need of protection, this would be compatible with a whole range of political and religious views that see women as Naturally subordinate/ inferior to men. I wouldn’t see these views as compatible with feminism,

OP posts:
Tandora · 04/08/2024 11:20

LilyBartsHatShop · 04/08/2024 11:19

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_skiing#Notes

"For men, degree of difficulty scores range from 2.050 to 5.000 while scores range from 2.050 to 5.300 for women.[16] However, the degree of difficulty is capped to 5.0 for Olympic events.[2]"

I know nothing about skiing, I live many thousands of kilometers from the nearest ski slope.
But I've been told that women are able to complete aerial skiing jumps that are objectively more difficult than the men's.

Interesting that the Olympics caps the difficulty level at the male level. When they're such champions of the most marginalised women of all and all that.
[I really hope someone knowledgeable is able to fill in my argument here - I don't follow any competitive sports at all, and I hope I'm not making a fool of myself here with faulty understanding. Just want aerial skiing to get a mention before the thread fills up.]

So interesting!! Thanks for sharing/ highlighting

OP posts:
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