Feminists against sex segregation in sports

[Tandora]

AIBU to share a different perspective on a subject that seems to be almost entirely taken for granted on mumsnet? This is not something I have a definite opinion on myself (although I am against sex testing and I fully support the rights of trans women and women with differences in sex development to compete alongside other women in sporting competitions at all levels).

However I have found it really upsetting the degrading way that people have been speaking recently about top/ elite female athletes; denigrating their sporting prowess, and portraying them as weak, feeble and helpless, particularly in the wake of this boxing match controversy.

I started looking into opinions on the issue, starting with a search on “feminists against sex segregation in sport”. I came across this really interesting article.

AIBU to share?

journals.library.wustl.edu/lawreview/article/3150/galley/19983/view/

On the contrary, the only way to believe that TWAW is by way of regressive stereotypes.

Not because you care about them at all - you're perfectly willing to make it harder for them to access healthcare

not sure why you think that?

what motivates me? A desire to end gender based oppression, feminism, social justice, empathy.

Gc women don't hold as a group vitriol for transwomen who look like men

I would report your stereotyping and negative group accusations but sometimes they are illuminating to people learning about something

No it doesn't.

Define a transwomen without refering to gender stereotypes.

Ok so if we can’t define the sexes based on biology, please can you define for us the specific qualities associated with the woman gender and the man gender? If I’m looking to figure out which one I am, how are the two different and defined?

Why don't Sharon, Martina and Nicola agree with the OP?

My definition of womanhood= being a woman
My definition of a woman= adult female human
My definition of female= of the sex class that produces large immobile gametes
Maybe you could point out any stereotypes in my definition Tandora

A transwoman is someone who was registered male at birth but has a female gender identity (I also like “subconscious sex” as a substitute for gender id).

Morning @Tandora

I was wondering about the lesbians question I asked you last night, you agree lesbians shouldn't be forced to have sex with "lady penis" which is great!

But then I wondered should I have phrased that a bit differently, and if I had would I have gotten a different answer from you.

So as a further clarification, I'd really appreciate the answers to these two follow up questions:

• Do you think that lesbians should be able to exclude transwomen from their dating pool?

• And would you consider lesbians who did exclude transwomen from their dating pool transphobic (or sex fascists?)

Thanking you in advance!

@Tandora

Before we run out of thread could you clarify which rules on male inclusion in female sport you agree with?

Just the ones that in are favour or do you also agree with the one that have banned it?

Define gender identity please

please can you define for us the specific qualities associated with the woman gender and the man gender no these vary hugely across individuals as well as diff social, cultural, religious groups etc.

Women who seek equality with men lack ambition.

The knowledge of one’s sex- knowledge of self as male, female, other.

But what is gender? Other than a bunch of stereotypes?

Why does the feeling a man has trump the biology a woman has. A woman is still abused regardless of her feelings and gender identity. Because sex.

Males forcing themselves onto women in terms of their identity and who gets to define what a woman is precisely down to sex and sexism.

The very concept of gender is the means to oppress women.

I don’t agree with banning trans women from participating in female sports.

i don’t agree with sex testing in sports.

Can you please link us to the evidence where a male at any stage of transition has less risk of committing a sexual offence than any other male person in the UK?

Then, can you please link us to the evidence where a male at any stage of transition has less or the same risk of committing a sexual offence as any female person in the UK?

Because it seems to me that you have some special knowledge that male people with a transgender identity should be exempt from safeguarding measures.

So you don't agree to recognise the real physical differences between the sexes ?

Bet you do when you come to choosing a sexual partner

So let me get this right, biological definitions aren’t good enough for you because they’re not 100% consistent with the existence of DSDs, but this wishy washy no definition at all, just two meaningless words, is absolutely fine?! How are people meant to know what gender they identify with, if there’s no clear markers that seperate the two? Why the need for surgery to imitate biological differences if they’re irrelevant to gender? None of this adds up does it?

Ooo still trying ensnare me into your “you’re a violent incel” box? 😂

Do you think that lesbians should be able to exclude transwomen from their dating pool?

of course. Anyone should be entirely free to include or exclude anyone they wish from their dating pool.

That's largely meaningless. How do you have knowledge of being female when you have a male body and have been socialised as a man?

Transwomen know their sex. They know they are male. Otherwise what are they transing from and to? Women are women. Even the awful 'cis women' acknowledges that sex is different to gender.

Sex isn't gender. You appear to be confusing the two and your argument is incoherent.

Gender identity is a belief. A lot of women don't believe in gender identity because they recognise it's a bunch of sexist stereotypes.

I don't believe in gender.

Sex is sex. Even those who transition know this.

• *And would you consider lesbians who did exclude transwomen from their dating pool transphobic (or sex fascists?)

Would I consider them sexual fascists for simply not dating trans women? no.

But you’ve just said there are no defining features of the male gender and female gender, so how on earth would they know? You’ve made them meaningless terms, as relevant as cake gender.