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To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

1000 replies

FishersGate · 02/08/2024 05:56

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

OP posts:
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47
Psychoticbreak · 02/08/2024 19:20

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:16

You could see individual chromosomes? You must have a hell of a TV.

Whatever the competition is, you win it 😂

PinkTonic · 02/08/2024 19:22

Runninggirls26 · 02/08/2024 19:04

This athlete was born with female genitals and assigned female at birth. She is female with DSD. That is her recorded sex and condition as I’ve stated several times. She is not male though she has male characteristics which I have never disputed. I’m really sorry but I do not know how to make it clearer to you but I suspect it wouldn’t matter anyway. You have decided someone is male and that’s that

I think you’re misunderstanding. He is male with a DSD which meant that his sex was incorrectly recorded as female. This error would have become obvious at puberty. His own public photos show clearly that he is in no doubt about his sex and does not choose to identify differently to his sex for any other purpose than cheating at sport.

perfectstorm · 02/08/2024 19:22

Runninggirls26 · 02/08/2024 19:04

This athlete was born with female genitals and assigned female at birth. She is female with DSD. That is her recorded sex and condition as I’ve stated several times. She is not male though she has male characteristics which I have never disputed. I’m really sorry but I do not know how to make it clearer to you but I suspect it wouldn’t matter anyway. You have decided someone is male and that’s that

DSDs are sex specific conditions, though - some only affect biological women, and others biological men, though ambiguous sexual organs and presentation can absolutely happen and that can make it hard, in the absence of genetic testing, to know what someone's condition is, and therefore what their sex is. In the richer nations, they now test genetically at birth to establish what is going on, so they can work out what the condition is - this matters, because there can be implications for eg kidney health, cognition, all sorts. But in large parts of the world, medical care at that level is far from universal. It's literally the only time that the "assigned at birth" lingo makes sense - it's assigned, rather than accurately identified, and absolutely where possible we need to be respectful and accepting of that person's sense of who they are and who they have been raised as being - I actually knew someone who was biologically male, raised as female, and it was very, very tough on her. The last thing she needed was anyone questioning her on what is, in point of fact, a medical condition she had no control over at all.

But there are some areas where that just collapses as a principle. Someone with a Y chromosome should not be competing in women's sports at all, and where you're dealing with contact sports, never mind combat, to pretend otherwise is just insane. I have absolute sympathy with how complex it must be to grow up believing you're female, only to discover your biology is male. This must be worse if your identity is also tied up in sporting brilliance, when your Y chromosome actually means you aren't necessarily brilliant - just male in the female category. But fairness means XX must have a protected category, or women will lose out horribly at best, and safety is surely the absolute decider because worst doesn't bear thinking about.

I have no clue whether this person is male or female, intersex or not. I don't follow boxing. I do know that the principle is simple: anyone male, whether they have a DSD that created ambiguity or not, does not belong in the women's category for sport. If this person is XX, with high testosterone, then that's one thing. Any variant with a Y, and they don't belong in women's sport. They are biologically male.

Of course we need to be sympathetic and accepting of DSDs and how they impact people. But sport is about bodies. And for every person at the Olympics, someone else didn't get to go. That's before you even get into the safety aspect of it all. You can't say, awww, but we don't want to hurt a male person's feelings, so all women have to budge up. That's just misogyny in a different wrapper.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 19:23

Well you must have been to have decided she’s male

I'm going by the available evidence. Of course this person is male.

Asherrain · 02/08/2024 19:23

titchy · 02/08/2024 19:20

This athlete was born with female looking genitals and incorrectly assigned female at birth. She is female male with DSD.

Fixed that for you.

By your own admission this is not someone who is a straightforward XX female, with female pheno and karyotype. Only those that are, qualify to compete in the women's categories.

An error made at birth, a 'not a proper' male, does not equal female. Women are not anyone who isn't 'properly' male.

What's your view on the fact that XY women have been able to give birth? Are they men too?
Or maybe it isn't all that straightforward.

duc748 · 02/08/2024 19:25

This athlete was born with female genitals and assigned female at birth. She is female with DSD.

You are assuming that your second sentence is a logical result of your first. Most other posters, myself included, are disputing that.

Frenchsplit · 02/08/2024 19:25

Apparently, these are photos of the boxer

To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport
To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport
HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 19:23

Well you must have been to have decided she’s male

I'm going by the available evidence. Of course this person is male.

The available evidence is ambiguous and contradictory.

If you have reviewed it and definitely come down on the side that Khelif is definitely male then you are being just as partisan as someone who reviewed the evidence and came down on the side that Khelif is definitely female.

Frenchsplit · 02/08/2024 19:27

The questions could be easily answered by the boxers speaking out, I guess

Frenchsplit · 02/08/2024 19:28

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:26

The available evidence is ambiguous and contradictory.

If you have reviewed it and definitely come down on the side that Khelif is definitely male then you are being just as partisan as someone who reviewed the evidence and came down on the side that Khelif is definitely female.

But the boxer has been ruled as not eligible for women’s competitions by the boxing organisation. And did not insist on an appeal

viques · 02/08/2024 19:28

Tommeetippee · 02/08/2024 14:46

Why do these athletes (trans/DSD) choose sports where sex doesn't matter or where both sexes are pooled together (like Equestrian, tennis, badminton)?

Because it is easier to win if your opponents are smaller, weaker women, with female lung and heart development, a female pelvis designed for birthing babies not running.

Better to ask why it is that since most sports are sex segregated why does it comes as such a surprise to athletes who have male bodies that they are not welcomed as competitors in female sports.

There is no universal human right that says that everyone has the right to take part in whatever sport they want to. Paralympic sports are organised so that different abilities are competing against similar abilities, and within that organisation male and female athletes compete separately. It is how it is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 19:29

If you have reviewed it and definitely come down on the side that Khelif is definitely male then you are being just as partisan as someone who reviewed the evidence and came down on the side that Khelif is definitely female.

I believe the IBA statement. We know Barbra Banda was also disqualified by the CAF for failing a sex eligibility test, so it's not exactly unusual for the IOC to let males compete, is it?

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:31

Frenchsplit · 02/08/2024 19:28

But the boxer has been ruled as not eligible for women’s competitions by the boxing organisation. And did not insist on an appeal

And the boxer was assigned female at birth. And Khelif's parents did not insist on a correction.

As I said, the evidence is ambiguous and contradictory.

LostTheMarble · 02/08/2024 19:33

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:16

You could see individual chromosomes? You must have a hell of a TV.

Just fully into TRA sound bites now aren’t we. Not that this thread isn’t full of the same old gaslighting of ‘just because you see a man doesn’t mean it’s a man’. They have been proven to have XY chromosomes, they have the full outward physiological features of a male person. If you had been shown a picture of them without any context, would you swear on your life that was a female born person you were looking at? If you were told ‘this person is about go fight a woman’ before knowing about their DSD, would you honestly think ‘good luck to her!’. Be sensible for goodness sake. The doctors observed their sex wrongly, and once they went through puberty it’s very clear they got it wrong when making that observation - it is not uncommon at all when it comes to historical cases of DSD. People have suffered for it, and it’s unfair their lives have been ruined by bad medical practice and understanding. Doesn’t mean we have once again throwing women under the bus to make space for kindness and mass agreement to lie about what we see.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 19:35

Well said @LostTheMarble

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:36

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2024 19:29

If you have reviewed it and definitely come down on the side that Khelif is definitely male then you are being just as partisan as someone who reviewed the evidence and came down on the side that Khelif is definitely female.

I believe the IBA statement. We know Barbra Banda was also disqualified by the CAF for failing a sex eligibility test, so it's not exactly unusual for the IOC to let males compete, is it?

What is it about the Russian-led, discredited IBA, who only came out with the XY claim after Khelif defeated the only Russian in a competition and who have so far entirely failed to back up that claim, that you find so convincing? Is it the way that they've been banned for lack of financial transparency, lack of integrity, and appalling culture?

Do you generally believe what Russian-led sources tell you, or is this an exception?

Nameychangington · 02/08/2024 19:37

Asherrain · 02/08/2024 19:23

What's your view on the fact that XY women have been able to give birth? Are they men too?
Or maybe it isn't all that straightforward.

Sigh. Did you even read the article? 'This study reports the unprecedented case of fertility in a 46, XY woman'. (Emphasis mine). One woman from a family with 4 generations of DSDs and 'a novel sex-determination gene or a gene that predisposes to chromosomal mosaicism'.

This is not relevant to these athletes. It's about one woman with a novel familial phenotype. It's a medical curiosity, not a means to allow males to co op women's sports. Why are you so keen to prioritise these males over all of the females they impact, both the competitors they beat and the colleagues whose places they take, using their unfair advantage? Why don't you care about those women?

perfectstorm · 02/08/2024 19:39

Asherrain · 02/08/2024 19:23

What's your view on the fact that XY women have been able to give birth? Are they men too?
Or maybe it isn't all that straightforward.

Well, there are cases where women have had successful pregnancies outside the uterus. Biologically, with the correct hormone treatment, it would be physically possible for any man to gestate (though incredibly dangerous for him as the abdominal cavity isn't designed for this, and the drug regimen would be a tad unfair on the baby - you can't test for this stuff). But he'd need a donated egg to do it.

As far as I am aware, the (vanishingly rare) cases of XY pregnancies involved intensive medical intervention to "mature" the underdeveloped uterus some XY male people have as part of the ambiguous genitalia, plus IVF using a donated egg. So they are carrying a baby to term, but they can't have created it as they are not fertile - they can't produce large gametes, even theoretically, because they are male. DSDs are pretty simple, in that you are male or female, and the categorisation of that is whether your body is primed to produce large or small gametes.

There's no case I am aware of where the XY person naturally conceived, because an XY person can't produce eggs. They are male.

Again, I don't think we know if this boxer has a DSD or not right now. But as a principle, an Y person can't produce large gametes, any more than a solely X one can sperm.

SinnerBoy · 02/08/2024 19:39

Helleofabore · Today 17:15

On whether a 'male with a DSD' is a male or a female: Thread starts here:

Thanks for your excellent research there, what an exceptionally informative post; I've definitely learned a few more things.

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:40

@LostTheMarble As I've said several times over, the evidence regarding Khelif's sex is ambiguous and contradictory. That so many people are so eager to believe the IBA's unsupported claim and incredibly partisan claim regarding Khelif's supposed XY chromosomes makes me wonder what their motives are. Similarly, I also wonder about the people who are so eager to insist that Khelif is definitely, positively female. There simply isn't the convincing evidence either way.

If, in your eyes, that makes me some kind of "TRA" then go ahead, knock yourself out. Try not to hit yourself in the chin with your knee jerks.

Luxell934 · 02/08/2024 19:41

So much misinformation on mumsnet about this issue.

How do you know what chromosomes she actually has? They haven’t been publicly released. The only report is from a Russian source, so not reliable at all.

She was born with a vagina, and identified as female her whole life. She is not transgender. Does she have higher testosterone than most women? Who knows. Possibly. Is she intersex? Maybe, but we don’t know. The Olympic body has cleared her to compete and that’s all that matters.

She’s lost plenty of fights against other women in the past. It’s not like she’s knocking them all out with a single punch.

The Italian athlete herself as come out and said she regrets causing so much hate, regrets not shaking her hand and if she meets her again she would embrace her.

perfectstorm · 02/08/2024 19:41

Nameychangington · 02/08/2024 19:37

Sigh. Did you even read the article? 'This study reports the unprecedented case of fertility in a 46, XY woman'. (Emphasis mine). One woman from a family with 4 generations of DSDs and 'a novel sex-determination gene or a gene that predisposes to chromosomal mosaicism'.

This is not relevant to these athletes. It's about one woman with a novel familial phenotype. It's a medical curiosity, not a means to allow males to co op women's sports. Why are you so keen to prioritise these males over all of the females they impact, both the competitors they beat and the colleagues whose places they take, using their unfair advantage? Why don't you care about those women?

That's amazing, though. Agree it doesn't prove anything, but fascinating medically!

Gorgonemilezola · 02/08/2024 19:42

HowardTJMoon · 02/08/2024 19:20

What reason could the Russian-led IBA want to claim that the person who beat the only Russian in the tournament was ineligible to win?

Hmm. I wonder.

The Russian was beaten by Khelif anf Lin Yu-ting?

Did either of them challenge their disqualification?

Runninggirls26 · 02/08/2024 19:42

duc748 · 02/08/2024 19:25

This athlete was born with female genitals and assigned female at birth. She is female with DSD.

You are assuming that your second sentence is a logical result of your first. Most other posters, myself included, are disputing that.

I’m not assuming she’s female with DSD it’s what she’s reported as being. And yes I can see that’s what’s being disputed

SinnerBoy · 02/08/2024 19:42

Oh, I see that the Taiwanese chap has just battered the Uzbek woman, Sitora Turdibekova, over three rounds. With these two results alone, I honestly fail to see how the reckless, ideological morons in the IOC can continue to support the situation and claim that all is well.

It's absolutely fucking sickening.

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