To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

I agree. It's impossible to know either way, and actually it's a painful mess for literally everyone involved at this point, whatever the truth of it.

The OC need to set up a proper policy, one that makes sense, and stick to it. Passports aren't remotely sensible as a determinant.

And why are the IOC seemingly unwilling (or unable, but I doubt that) to perform a simple cheek swab to allay concerns?

I've heard that Khelif tried to obtain the data from the IBA that they used to make their decision and was denied. I've also heard that no-one else has been allowed to see that data either. I don't know how much truth there is in those claims.

Regardless, are you suggesting that a boxer who has allegedly just been unfairly disqualified by the Russian-led IBA for beating a Russian boxer, should have appealed to the Russian-led IBA about that decision?

I was amending Running’s statement that she was female because she had ‘female genitalia’.

Dunno. I'm not part of the IOC nor do I claim to speak on their behalf.

Have you tried asking them?

She was disqualified by the IBA, who have since been banned from officiating Olympic events due to lack of transparency in testing. Also, it was reported that Imane had high testosterone levels. However her results were never released. She has never failed a test with any other official body.

She has never failed a test with any other official body

Has she taken any? It's easy to avoid failing tests if you don't do them.

The IBA are no more or less corrupt than the IOC. Except one does chromosomal testing to determine eligibility, and the other doesn’t.

If the IOC wants to present itself as a bastion of virtue and fairness, it should introduce the simple cheek swab test and stop trying to push this nonsensical ‘it’s all SO complex’ narrative. It really isn’t,

I’m really sorry but I do not know how to make it clearer to you but I suspect it wouldn’t matter anyway. You have decided someone is male and that’s that
The majority of posters are so entrenched in their feminist attitude that they can't conceive just for a second that someone can have a medical condition that impacts on their preconception about sex.

Such posters somehow seem to know secrets about this athlete despite never being published and have medical knowledge on the matter that defies expert clinicians.

It's well explained in every medical site that sex is NOT just defined by chromosomes, yet we have pages after pages of posters referring to her as male shouting high and low that she can only be a male because she has a Y chromosomes.

Some people won't ever accept they are wrong when being so doesn't fit with their ideologies.

If the Russian-ness of the IBA is of concern to the IOC, why continue accepting their results til 2023 - when Russia were not allowed to compete since 2019?

If this isn't sorted, women's sport might as well just pack up and go home. What a thoroughly depressing state of affairs.

You are factually wrong though.

“This athlete was born with female genitals and assigned female at birth. She is female with DSD. That is her recorded sex and condition as I’ve stated several times.”

And ‘female genitals’ don’t make a female.
Being assigned ‘female at birth’ has been proven to be sometimes an incorrect ‘assignment’.

A person’s recorded sex is therefore irrelevant. In some
countries a male can choose to be ‘registered’ as a female. Recorded sex is now meaningless.

If a male person has a DSD that only impacts male people as many male DSDs do, what part of ‘male’ condition says to you that they are female?

Actually, I think your answer says all we need to know. You are uninformed and now just perpetuating misinformation about a topic you know too little about.

And ‘no’, ‘I’ didn’t decide this athlete was male. Nature and science did. Take it up with material reality.

I haven't seen any clear information on what Khelif's problem actually is. The IBA statement on their website says they didn't test Khelif for testosterone and instead performed another recognised test which remains confidential. So everything else that is being discussed re: specific DSD conditions, chromosomes, Caster Semenya etc is just speculation, we don't know. All we know is that she failed an eligibility test of some kind. (I am also wary of assigning sex or genetics to people based on appearance because appearances are often wrong).

In my opinion intersex conditions should probably be a disqualifying criteria for elite sports, so if Khelif has this she should not be allowed to box competitively anymore. This sounds cruel, perhaps, but the reality is there are many disabilities, medical conditions etc which disqualify people from doing certain things. If Khelif is not strong enough to compete with men, and too strong to compete with women, there is no mainstream sports category in which they can compete safely without endangering themselves or others.

I don't doubt that Khelif was raised as a girl and believes she is a girl (there are childhood photos circulating), but given how overrepresented intersex people are in sports, there are definitely coaches who scout athletes with these conditions on purpose, especially in developing countries. This is probably a Dora Ratjen-type situation: an old-fashioned type of sports cheating, which countries like the USA or the UK don't have to do because they have advanced pharma instead. (Most top athletes are doping one way or another, but that's another conversation.)

In fact, surely with these big sporting bodies, it's reasonable to assume they are a corrupt bunch of crooks. People have moaning, rightly, about FIFA since the days of João Havelange, EUFA too (Platini!), and the IOC. The many different boxing organisations have always likewise been mired in scandal. So to present the IBA as the untrustworthy crooks surrounded by good guys seems a little disingenuous.

In my opinion intersex conditions should probably be a disqualifying criteria for elite sports

Unnecessary. These athletes just need to compete in their sex class. 'Intersex', better described as Disorders of Sex Developments or Variations of Sex Characteristics, can be as mild as penile hypospadia; they don't need to disqualify anyone.

I'm not going to look that up...

@duc748 Who are you suggesting is presenting the "IBA as the untrustworthy crooks surrounded by good guys"?

It usually means the urethra is positioned in an unusual place.

Imane was born in a poor rural community - I doubt there were any clinical professionals present. The widwife/doula village birthing person assumed they were female based on their ambivalent genitalia and the family registered them accordingly. As others have said, as they grew up it should have been obvious that there was something different going on, especially when they hit puberty, by which time the family probably did not wish to publicly declare the mistake.

This didn’t happen in a first world clinical setting. It’s tragic, but the coaches and the family have colluded to disguise this individuals real gender when it should have been medically evaluated, declared and the birth certificate altered.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/cnd0drjr4jdo

That's more than enough detail, thanks, Arabella!

Both athletes were given the opportunity to appeal and challenge the IBA ruling that they were genetically male. Neither went through with the appeal.

Now, like you I don’t know what test the IBA did, or the veracity of their evidence, but I sure as hell know that if someone told me I was a man and I was convinced I was a woman and believed I had the physical and genetic proof that I was a woman, (even if I was not trying to make a career for myself as an international athlete ) I would move heaven and earth to have that decision repealed. I would also ask for independent tests to be made. They didn’t do that either.

I think it tells its own story that neither of them was prepared to challenge the IBA findings, or submit to independently verified tests.

I think the issue is very difficult, and not straight forward. Many athletes excel because they have an advantage (obviously) they are faster, bigger, stronger, and for Kalif, brought up as a girl, with visible female sex organs. To suddenly become aware that you aren't a 'full' girl and also have undescended testes, would in itself be difficult. I don't see that it's black and white with all the athletes who are affected, phelps is often brought up as he has proportionally massive hands in comparison, and finding out despite your outward appearance that you have XY chromosome, I think needs to be treated carefully. They are not 'the best' boxer. They have previously had no complaints made for excessive injuries before this was discovered (I believe) and didn't deliberately box knowing they were ,male' I see this different to those who transition, but think they unfortunately need to not compete if it's shown they have gone through male puberty

Talking to my dc about the boxer. He told me about a debate he had in PE a-level several years ago regarding testosterone.

Apparently, Michael Phelps had higher than normal testosterone levels, which gave him an advantage and was considered a good thing. However, if a female’s test stone levels are high, the apparent advantage is frowned upon.

@viques so you do indeed believe that a boxer who has allegedly just been unfairly disqualified by the Russian-led IBA for beating a Russian boxer, should have appealed to the Russian-led IBA about that decision.

Fair enough. Do you commonly believe what Russian-led organisations tell you, or is the IBA an exception?