To think the Khelif issue is now raising more big questions in sport

[FishersGate]

Biological men should not be fighting women how is this even happening ?? Two 'women' failed eligibility tests by the IBA. Yet the IOC deem them suitable it's mind boggling

@MissScarletInTheBallroom so your source is the Russian-led IBA who was banned for a number of violations, including ethics. And who have refused to give release the data that led them to that decision. And who entirely coincidentally made that pronouncement just after the only Russian competitor in the tournament was beaten.

Do you commonly believe what Russian-led sports organisations say, or is the IBA an exception?

If you read the link I posted just a few minutes ago, Howard, you'd see that many of your criticisms of the IBA simply aren't true. I'm sure the details of who fought who at the World Championships could be Googled without too much difficulty.

They can't release that data because it is the athletes' personal data. Their private medical information.

What the IOC could and should have done was run their own tests rather than just relying on what it says in their fucking passports.

They'd appeal to the CAS.

Which one of them did, but subsequently withdrew that appeal.

https://www.tas-cas.org/

Here:

• 'Lin Yu-ting did not appeal the IBA’s decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), thus rendering the decision legally binding.
• Imane Khelif initially appealed the decision to CAS but withdrew the appeal during the process, also making the IBA decision legally binding.

www.iba.sport/news/iba-reaffirms-the-position-and-removal-of-boxers-from-all-events/

But a poster just showed that they chose not to appeal via the independent body, which they could have done. And another showed that it's not true that they competed against anyone Russian, either.

If you want to insist that other people are blindly trusting of 'facts' which support their existing views, then I think you need to accept with grace that you yourself have done just that.

I know there are a lot of JK fans on Mumsnet, but I was sure her initial tweet about this said the boxer was a "trans male", looked back, it now says "male", and she's retweeted stuff about DSD. Am I going crazy, or can tweets be edited? If so, it's disingenuous not to acknowledge the mistake.

I think individuals with DSD competing against women needs rigorous assessment, for safety, parity and fairness. The IOC seem to be taking the 'stick our fingers in our ears and yellow lalala' approach and hoping for the best in the name of inclusion.

Does Khelif have Swyer Syndrome? That would take testosterone out of the equation. And , presumably , male puberty would not have occurred. Or any real puberty without the help of oestrogen etc?

I'm not trying to leverage political points fgs. Im just saying it's not as straightforward as people are making out. It doesn't matter if its 'rare'. There are also men who have XX chromosomes, again very rare. And a poster above has just pointed out a friend who had XY but developed as a female as she didn't respond to testosterone. What should she compete as?

You're basing an argument on a hypothetical situation extrapolated from an anecdote from an anonymous internet poster?

This stuff is hard for laypeople to understand, but not for medical experts.

Is the body set up to produce small gametes or large ones? That is the key question and I don't think any DSD involves ambiguity about that fundamentally.

No diagnosis has been released, but Swyers wouldn't make sense given the details that have been hinted at

I know there are a lot of JK fans on Mumsnet, but I was sure her initial tweet about this said the boxer was a "trans male", looked back, it now says "male", and she's retweeted stuff about DSD. Am I going crazy, or can tweets be edited? If so, it's disingenuous not to acknowledge the mistake.

I saw it very soon after and I'm not aware of it being changed at all.

I'm not trying to leverage political points fgs. Im just saying it's not as straightforward as people are making out. It doesn't matter if its 'rare'. There are also men who have XX chromosomes, again very rare. And a poster above has just pointed out a friend who had XY but developed as a female as she didn't respond to testosterone. What should she compete as?

It is straightforward. Women are not non-men. Women must have XX with female phenotype and karyotype in order to be able to compete in female sporting categories. Anyone else either competes in male/open categories or doesn't compete.

I'll repeat for the hard of hearing - women and not classified as non-men.

You keep repeating this, but it's not true, is it?

Lists of the boxers' fixtures before disqualification are available online. Neither had a fixture against a Russian.

Oh and either could have appealed to the independent body in CAS if they disagreed with the basis for disqualification and seen it through rather than just posturing half-heartedly about it, which is what happened. Or they could consent to the release of their most basic medical information and put this to bed once and for all.

And yet... silence.

No. I was interested in what she said and googled it. There is a condition called androgen insensitivity syndrome which could cause the situation she described. But I had no reason to believe the poster was lying.

I have always been a JK supporter and agree with most of her trans views. I have lost all respect for her over this though.

So.... you didn't intend to leverage people's medical conditions, but you did do it anyway.

I am sure if you read this thread from the start, you would understand that the posters you are accusing of 'making out it is straightforward' are very much informed as to these particular medical conditions. It is you, and others who seem to be not informed and reacting purely on emotional reasoning here.

You DID leverage a very rare case of a male carrying a full term pregnancy when that male person does not process testosterone. It has been explained to you that some male people do have body parts and functions that are associated with the opposite sex. However, those male people do not produce ova. They do not have ovaries. They do have either testes or streak testes. They do not process the testosterone that their own body produces. That is their medical condition. That you decided to use as a gotcha.

Has a poster here said that a male person who does not process the testosterone they produce is not currently eligible to compete? Any poster? Or have you just built a straw man there?

In the future, with further study it may be found that those athletes may be excluded. However, they are not excluded at the moment. And at the moment, there is not enough evidence to show advantage. There may never be.

AND they are not the athletes under discussion. The IBA has reported that the athletes in question have been found to have an advantage over female athletes. This is an indication that these athlete's bodies utilise the testosterone that they produce. Their bodies virilised using this testosterone to produce a physical advantage.

Ok fair enough, perhaps I inferred it from the tone and responses

People speculating on someone's medical condition or genetic make up, especially a female, is disgusting. There's no evidence she is not a woman other than a dodgy Russian report

I don't see why the IBA tests are dodgy, but there's a very easy answer here. The IOC do their own tests.

Surely the point is not what you resemble when you emerge from your mother's womb, it's who you turn out to be as you go through puberty (although in the vast majority of cases it's obvious, of course).

There is a straight answer. If Khelif was born with a penis or a dong as you so articulately put it then male would have been on the birth cert. You cannot pretend a penis does not exist especially as a medical professional and I am fairly sure even though Algeria would not have the same facilities as we do a person would know the difference between a vagina and a penis.

Ok fair enough, perhaps I inferred it from the tone and responses

The responses from TRAs assumed it was about trans because they only care about trans. They care about DSDs as much as they can use them in a gotcha argument that biological sex isn't important or relevant.