To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)

[AngeloMysterioso]

Angela Carini is the incredibly brave Italian boxer who had her Olympic dream shattered in less than a minute after being punched in the face by Imane Khelif, a male competitor who was disqualified from the women’s World Championships last year because his testosterone levels were too high.
Everyone should be saying her name. Over and over and over again.

Please stop explaining this as if we don't understand, you are starting to look foolish.

WE UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KARYOTYPE AND PHENOTYPE.

You are not understanding how biological sex is determined.

People with XX chromosomes cannot have CAIS.

A) You don’t know what they have

and

B) it’s not moot.

there are people all over this thread claiming that sex is simple and can be reduced to chromosomes. It isn’t and it can’t . Once you can understand one example of variation and complexity , you can perhaps start to appreciate others.

I just don’t think they’re men either because they don’t have a completely male or female set of reproductive organs.

What do you call a person who has had a full hysterectomy? Isn't that person still a woman despite not having a set of reproductive organs?

And that's why it's based on chromosomal differences, the dna, rather than reproduction. Although reproduction did help to squash Caistors claim to womanhood when he fathered children naturally.

Why? There’s nothing that means they can’t compete with men from a biological perspective other than “snot fair!”

Oh FGS, yes chromosomes DO determine sex. This is primary school biology. Give over.

People with XX chromosomes cannot have CAIS

agree.

if you understand the biology of sex development why do you continue to bizarrely insist that karyotype is always determinative of sex development 💁🏼‍♀️

The point is for Tandora to muddy the water just enough so people new to the thread might not realise this is IOC sanctioned male violence against women and that they don't care about safety, dignity and fair competition for women.

I totally agree that trans women shouldn’t be in women’s sports.

I just was unsure about whatever category this Algerian person fell into. I mean as far as I knew or gathered, if you were born with a vagina, there would have to be some reason for that which meant that you were not 100 % a man even with internal testes.

Defo not saying that suggests that you’re a woman either.

But if they’ve been through male puberty then I guess they’re male…

This shit’s confusing, there’s been far too much going on in the news in the past few days and I’m going to bed.

Interesting stuff about the ambiguous genitalia though. I always thought what people called intersex before meant neither one or the other but I stand corrected…

Anyone who watched that 46 second match knows the truth.

Sex matters.

#IStandWithAngela

Night, all.

So, given all people with xx chromosomes are female, females can't have CAIS. And those with XY can. And they are.....drum roll....male

Anyone who watched that match, listened to what other women who've fought him had to say or indeed looked at any photos of this man.

For goodness sake, in some cases it might be more complicated but in this case it's plain as day.

Well said!! 👏👏👏👏

And because karyotype does determine sex. Phenotype can lead to gender assumptions, but as a societally imposed construct, it is not scientific, frankly dangerous, and complete bollocks.

This boxer has the body of a man so has clearly gone through male puberty and therefore is patiently not insensitive to androgens. So your point is?

I think my NHS website is different to Tandora's.

We don't know what they have in terms of which DSD, but we do know they have male physiology (because we can see it) and people with CAIS don't develop male physiology (as you have told us again and again) so we know what ever the situation is it's not CAIS.
Variations in development do not mean there isn't a binary. All DSDs either occur in men or in women. There is no DSD that can be in both sexes and there are no people who are both sexes or neither sex.

Err it's you that seems to think a vagina and breasts are what makes someone female, it's not.

Maybe this will help.

Most of the people who have grown up female/in a body that has developed female anatomy (such as this athlete) find out their XY chromosomes very late into teenage years or in their early 20s, this is true for non-athletes too

Just seems like this discussion is lacking in empathy for how big a shift it must be to expect someone to either compete as a man or never compete again? And the implication that this is male violence seems to me unfair, or at least lacking in nuance for this situation. These aren't Trans women. And they havent necessarily had any indication of being "men" before.

Plus this particular athlete has been beaten by women at least 9 times previously, its not like they are steamrolling the competition?

i have lots of reservations about trans participation in some sports, and how different sports deal with DSD, but i dont think that means i have to forego my humanity and compassion?

just because people with xx chromosomes can’t have CAIS and are female, it doesn’t logically follow that females can’t have CAIS. You need to take some philosophy lessons as well as biology.

Incidentally , I don’t know why you think you know better than the people living with these conditions, the medical professionals treating them, the nhs that regulates the professionals treating them, the scientific papers that have been researched and written about them, and the law, but the arrogance of ignorance never ceases to disappoint .

YANBU in saying she shouldn't have been allowed to compete. Certainly not a fair fight and I'm really surprised it happened as I thought all the trans and DSD athletes had been disbarred from international competitions now.

But all the posters insisting on calling her a man and referring to 'he' and 'him' are being very unfair and unkind. She isn't trans. Imagine getting to 15 or 16 and then suddenly finding out that you aren't a girl but a boy. Would you honestly just flip your whole identity and presentation and say 'oh ok, I'll be a man' then. I seriously doubt it! You would be a woman in all ways except your chromosones. Individuals who are unfortunate enough to have to go through this should be allowed to live as they grew up (assuming they want to) and to be treated as their chosen sex in almost all circumstances, whether they decide to be male or female. Sadly for them, sport should be an exception to that.

#istandwithangelacarini

Sorry I got sucked back in, I really am going to bed now . Night 😴

Where's his humanity for Carini? And he knew he was XY when he was tested previously, so at this point he's choosing to cheat. He knows it's unfair.

Your entire post is lacking in empathy for Carini and all the other women losing out because of the inclusion of a man.

Completely agree with this.