To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)

[AngeloMysterioso]

Angela Carini is the incredibly brave Italian boxer who had her Olympic dream shattered in less than a minute after being punched in the face by Imane Khelif, a male competitor who was disqualified from the women’s World Championships last year because his testosterone levels were too high.
Everyone should be saying her name. Over and over and over again.

Although, having said that, if the only evidence is F on the passport, there might not be a DSD at all. There has been so much contradictory information put out.

And there we have it. Never mind medicine, science, the law….

as Jesus said :

“XY = male
XX = female

Everything else = gender bollox.”

night all 😘

Biology, sweetie. Not Jesus.

The cult of gender should get to grips with it!

But surely if a woman is defined as someone born with female reproductive organs, and a man is someone born with male reproductive organs, then there has to be another category for those born with aspects of both.

Like if you have internal testes and an external vagina surely you don’t fit neatly into either category.

This is a different question to whether you can turn from one to the other which by these definitions you can’t because you can’t change your reproductive system from make to female or vice versa.

That they may be registered as female to make their life easier does not actually change their sex.

Sex is a matter of material biological reality and is not determined by a legal document.

I believe someone has already told you that advocacy groups have asked that people with DSD's are left out of the "sex is a spectrum" debate but you insist on exploiting them as if it has any bearing on the Olympic boxing.

You are all over threads about women's rights accusing everyone of transphobia and now you're like a dog with a bone over a very specific DSD, this suggests to me that you'd never even heard of CAIS before this evening and perhaps, incorrectly, assume that the rest of us hadn't either so it's ironic that you are telling others to educate themselves.

It’s a bit mean to just say it’s gender bollox for people who have been born in this situation. It’s not like they asked for it.

"individuals with XY chromosomes, no matter their secondary sex characteristics or medical conditions, are still male. And they should not be competing against females.
@iocmedia was and has been aware of concerns surrounding Khelif and Lin's biological sex, yet has been allowing them to continue to compete against females. This is putting female athletes at serious risk."

Absolutely this. The IOC have lost all credibility in allowing this to happen, especially when these males had previously been banned from women's championships.
If really necessary people with XY chromosomes who consider themselves to be women could have their own category - maybe in the paralympics? I wouldn't watch it but it's better than watching a man beat up a woman. The IOC should be ashamed of themselves.

By all means create separate categories for people with DSDs.

But don’t call people with XY chromosomes women and allow them to compete in women’s sport.

It’s not hard.

Idiot male pundit on Sky News Paper Review saying these things are very nuanced (they're not) and he assumes the IOC has really stringent criteria in place that these boxers have to pass (meanwhile the IOC guy said that the boxers were female on their passports and that was that). He then said these things need to be decided on a case by case basis (as if, all of a sudden, you have to be some kind of genius level biologist to work out who is a man and who is a woman).

He's doing that whole 'reasonable man' thing and hasn't even considered the impact on women.

It’s ‘a bit mean’ to put someone with XY chromosomes in the ring with a female boxer.

I don’t understand why sentimental feelings should come into sport?

This isn’t about hurting people with DSDs. It’s about being clear and fair about sex categories in sport,

Finally @Tandora you are speaking sense. Glad we all helped you "educate yourself".

And just do drum it home for you so you don't forget

"Women & girls" are biological females XX chromosomes
"Men & boys" are biological males XY chromosomes

I’m not calling them women and I don’t think they should be competing in men’s sports.

I just don’t think they’re men either because they don’t have a completely male or female set of reproductive organs.

I defo have more pressing tasks than to set this up myself though. I’ve got two kids on their summer holz and a freezer that needs defrosting!

Honestly- it's rare I ever post on gender threads- but I watched this today and it really pissed me off- I whether the person has female chromosomes or not you only had to look at the build, the way they moved and facially to know they clearly have male ones too - anyone who has these pre known gender issues should not be allowed to compete as a woman- it may make little difference in something like shooting- it certainly does in boxing!!

Gender - whatever that is…how you feel, how you present, how you wish to be, how you were raised, is NOT sex.

Gender cannot be evidenced. It’s a construct.
Sex is a real, observable, biological thing.

If we base sporting sex categories on gender, we might as well not bother at all.

As I said - I agree with you about them not being in women’s sport. I just don’t think it’s fair for them to have to be in men’s either.

If you understand how the fetus develops it is easy to see how the genitalia can appear ambiguous. the "vagina" is usually a short, blind pouch, the labia majora actually the incomplete scrotum and the penis, (underdeveloped micropenis) appears to be a larger than average clitoris. Not typical female genitalia, but ambiguous genitalia. Inexperienced birth attendants have to guess. Experienced staff in a hospital would get a paediatrician to check and organise genetic testing as a matter of urgency. This isn't going to happen in some countries. so the sex isn't obvious until puberty kicks in.

This is just bonkers. I don’t like boxing as a sport but just watching the )less than a minute) footage, you can’t help but notice that despite their size being similar, the difference in physicality and movement of the 2 boxers is quite stark.

You would never see a bantam weight boxer fight a heavy weight (male or female ) because it wouldn’t be fair.

It’s such an unfair contest. I don’t know how it can be defended. It certainly doesn’t help tfemale or trans or DSD athletes. It’s time to have a sensible conversation about this issue or else the validity of these competitions is lost.

Biological females just won’t bother competing if the odds and rules are pre-stacked against them.

#istandwithangelacarini

Sex is a matter of material biological reality and is not determined by a legal document

But ”material biological reality” isnt as simple as you seem to believe it is- it is complex.
People can have a male karyotype but materially and biologically they are better described as female than male because of how their body does or doesn’t develop. This is what you seem to misunderstand - , but it is the general medical consensus. The law simply follows the science and the medicine. Women with CAIS have bodies that are insensitive to androgens, which is the masculanizing agent - produced by people who have a male karyotype- that gives male people their biological, material male characteristics. if your body is insensitive to these androgens you don’t develop a male body regardless of your karyotype.

Yes the two female so-called journalists weren’t any better. It was all waved away as being ‘too complex’ and just a sensationalist headline. Nothing to see here.

Absolutely fucking infuriating.

I think Tandora decided to do a bit of googling rather than say her prayers and go to bed.

You’re wrong, though. Chromosomes don’t lie.

XY DSDs are men though, they just have underdevelopment of their genitals at birth which are sometimes mistaken for female - they don’t have female reproductive organs. Testes are internal. They are still 100% male.

Depending on the condition there may be virilisation at puberty, when the internal testes mature and produce testosterone.

No one who has gone through a male puberty should be competing against women

But neither of the boxers in question have CAIS so that point is moot.

If they have gone through male puberty it's perfectly fair for them to compete in male sport.

But they can't compete in male sport because they are too shite to qualify so decide to make a career cheating women instead .

Have you never wondered why trans men invading mens sport isn't an issue?

If they have an advantage it's because they gave gone through the irreversible changes of make puberty, which makes them unambiguously men .

Aw! I guess I'll never get your definition of sexual fascism then? - Do you think female people should have sex segregated sport, spaces, health care, prisons? Do you think lesbians should welcome sex with penises?

Or an answer on what rights you think trans identifying people don't have now that the rest of society benefits from?

• FWIW the answer is none. They have the exact same rights as everyone else - except trans identified females, or transmen that is - with the added bonus of trans identifying men (or transwomen) get some extras and can now barge into female jobs, awards, sponsorships, prisons, etc etc etc. HTH!

I guess you either don't have the answers or more likely you know that they'd be a pile of waffle that didn't make any sense.

Curiosity unsated. Oh well, it would have been amusing (sort of) but again, your lack of answer over two threads now is in fact a very clear answer.