To be glad that #IStandWithAngelaCarini is trending no.1 in the UK on X (Twitter)

[AngeloMysterioso]

Angela Carini is the incredibly brave Italian boxer who had her Olympic dream shattered in less than a minute after being punched in the face by Imane Khelif, a male competitor who was disqualified from the women’s World Championships last year because his testosterone levels were too high.
Everyone should be saying her name. Over and over and over again.

I do get this but in this case we don’t know if they are unambiguously male or not.

You can be genetically XY but if you have complete insensitivity to male hormones (androgens) you will be physically female. There will definitely be female athletes who don’t even know that they are XY.

But if you have partial insensitivity to male hormones then you genuinely will be somewhere in between. Which is why the XY = genetically male is a red herring. We can only judge whether it is fair and dangerous to let XY athletes compete in women’s categories based on things like how they developed in puberty and their testosterone levels.

And personally I would err on the side of caution and set that bar quite low to protect the integrity of women’s sport and competitor safety. It’s just quite as simple as ‘they’re all men’.

No.

Here you go:

For any reader who believes that any female person can have testosterone in the 'male range' please look at this chart if it works here, otherwise, please go look at it on page 5 of this thread.

Plus

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

and

twitter.com/seaningle/status/1537480540068225031?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

Sean Ingle (Guardian sports journalist) mentioned this

The latest scientific publications clearly demonstrate that the return of markers of endurance capacity to "female level" occurs within six to eight months under low blood testosterone, while the awaited adaptations in muscle mass and muscle strength/power take much longer (two years minimum according to a recent study). Given the important role played by muscle strength and power in cycling performance, the UCI has decided to increase the transition period on low testosterone from 12 to 24 months. In addition, the UCI has decided to lower the maximum permitted plasma testosterone level (currently 5 mol/L) to 2.5 mol/L. This value corresponds to the maximum testosterone level found in 99.99% of the female population.

Plus

^https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581^

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletes

“In adulthood, circulating testosterone concentrations do not come close to overlapping between females (0.1–1.7 nmol/L) and males (7.7–29.4 nmol/L).”

plus with handy charts in the tweet

https://x.com/hoovlet/status/1819017510005407984

“Confirmed. No overlap in T levels between healthy men and women, and rarely in people with atypical levels”.

“Below I'll include some info from my book on T and sex diffs. First is an illustration of the combined data from a meta-analysis of studies on a healthy population (by David Handelsman), and another on T levels in ppl with medical conditions/DSDs (by Richard Clark). I've also included my text description of the data. The original illustration is from Doriane Coleman's excellent Sex in Sport article (link is in the graphic). She let me adapt it for my book but hers is clearer!”

If you are using the term 'woman with high testosterone', plus check your sources and don't spread misinformation. Female people with PCOS, women, DO NOT HAVE male levels of testosterone!

ugc-assets.mumsnet.com/images/202408/large-i1GczuAp58xPFR46qzIb7XW5PHNRyU7Jow0eI0H3.png

The outcry over cases like this and Steven van de Velde makes me wonder how many instances of sexism there were in previous Olympics that we just didn't know about. Probably a lot.

It definitely happened I gleefully witnessed it!! @littlbrowndog it was the mood & rethoric, it was sombre & I felt very much in solidarity with heartbroken Angela.. Put it this way I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in a TRAs living room during that segment. Great to see the media copping the fuck on. Well done BBC!

Just look at Rio 800 metres Olympics

the top 3 were all men

BBC News - Boxer Khelif through as opponent abandons in 46 seconds
https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cw0yvln9z00o

Its on the news app

I was in shock, even DH said "blimey they have changed their tune since this morning"! Sue said something afterwards to the effect of "this is a story that will continue & continue", Sue herself looked very sombre..

Awesome gonna iplayer it 🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

Thank you & they have the video clip. Fantastic stuff.

Yeah circulating testosterone is as much of a red herring as pure genetics. What counts is male puberty, which confers permanent advantages in musculature, lung capacity etc.

For clarity, Imane Khelif is not trans; this is a similar case to Caster Semenya. khelif has always lived as a girl / woman from birth, and appears to have different levels of testosterone and/or other sex markers to the average female, but this is not the same as someone being born male and transitioning to female, more like someone with complex biological status that is not cleanly one or the other.

That is so upsetting to watch. Poor woman. I have zero problem with trans women but that footage is going to cause a lot more problems for them than gain them allies. It is utterly wrong. Sex categories exist for a good reason.

How do you know this stuff. You don’t know this persons medical records.

he’s never claimed to be trans.

all we know is he was tested for chromosomes and he has xy chromosomes

It's you who is being creepy.

If these male athletes did not have an advantage, as stated by the IBA, then maybe you could have argued they had CAIS. However, even PAIS athletes have some advantage over female athletes because with PAIS they have experienced even partial viralisation.

If you are in doubt, please read the IBA statement released overnight that was clear that they tested these athletes and found them to have advantage.

These athletes both know that they have advantages over female athletes and have chosen to compete with that knowledge. While you might have an argument if this was not public knowledge, it has been known that these athletes were excluded from IBA competitions last year.

You, personally, might choose to err on the side of caution, but then you might not have read what has been published about this to be informed. In this instance, it is rather clear that these athletes are male. They have pubertal advantage. It really is that simple.

Yes. Pubertal advantages. As it has been stated by the IBA that these athletes have from the testing done by the IBA.

Yes, and the woman who lost out on a bronze was absolutely vilified and called a bigot and racist and accused of crying 'white women's tears' for mentioning the unfairness of it. People were absolutely gleeful that they got to rip into a woman but still claim that they were virtuous. It's just another area of life where women are meant to smile and pretend that they aren't being walked all over.

She proves a point, but a better result would have been her showing up, and then walking slowly out in protest.

They might well have been brought up as girls, ( I am being generous in my interpretation of this theory), but when they didn’t have periods, or develop breasts, and when they started to develop a muscular male body, then you would assume that someone , parents, doctors, sports coaches would have initiated further investigations, which are hardly difficult to administer or prohibitively expensive. And if that didn’t happen then surely, when it was decided that they were good enough to represent their country as female boxers then the very thorough medical examination and supervision that all top level athletes from all countries are kept under would have raised this issue and dealt with it.

Personally I can’t believe that in the 21st century it is possible for any athlete to be mis sexed in error.

Semenya lives as a man and has fathered children. The only time Semenya chooses to be a woman is in women's competitive sport.

This needs posting again...and again...and again.

Her nose was broken?? In one punch? I missed this point.

Bloody hell! 🤬🤬

Imagine someone who calls themselves a feminist, declaring that people who don't believe in the pseudoscientific theory that sex is more complicated than human bodies being categorised using multiple parameters and modern testing into male and female * are Sex Fascists and primitive*, not understanding consent and safeguarding.

Remarkable.

* Female humans are categorised as those who have bodies formed around the production of large gametes, regardless of whether they have ever produced, will produce or are producing those gametes. There is no 'third' sex, there is no inbetween sex. No human has ever produced both gametes. With modern technology it is possible to categorise every human on the planet into either female or male. It is not Sex Fascism* to understand that this is the material reality of being human. No matter how much someone's philosophical beliefs wish it was different.

Well done Judy Murray.

All good points.

I'd add: are those women free to refuse their consent to fight a man without this having very significant detriments to them? Their place in the Olympics? The harassment and threats and dangers of upsetting a certain political lobby?

It's rather like men loftily saying 'if you're not happy with me undressing in this space with you or giving you this medical exam you can always self exclude and give up your right to be here altogether'.

It's coercion. Not consent. Women should not be forced to choose between their safety and their equality.

Nor should such things be gatekept for women by men on condition of women being allowed in women's spaces and resources and sports only if they are good girls who serve the men there.