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A woman has to box a man today at the Olympics. AIBU to be scared for her?

1000 replies

ilovemoney · 01/08/2024 10:28

Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif: Boxers cleared for Paris Olympics - BBC Sport

They are both biological males. Its to IOC, International Olympic committee. There will be a protest and i know another female Irish boxer has pulled out but surely this cant stand. The women could be seriously injured.

Imane Khelif and Lin Yu-ting

Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif: Boxers cleared for Paris Olympics

Two athletes are cleared to compete at the women's boxing at the Paris Olympics, having been disqualified from last year's World Championships for failing to meet eligibility criteria.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/articles/c4ngr93d9pgo

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Runningupthecurtains · 01/08/2024 15:50

If they hadn't taken part in high level professional sports they may have never known about their medical condition

@JusteanBiscuits nonsense - they would never have periods so even if no other alarm bells were wrung and they didn't notice male type puberty signs they would by their late teens be aware that they weren't developing like women and this would be investigated.
The tragic truth is rather than no one knowing males with DSDs that lead to them being incorrectly sexed at birth are actively sought out by unscrupulous people to be guided into elite sport, because they have female documents and male advantage they are sure fire winners.

Naunet · 01/08/2024 15:51

MellersSmellers · 01/08/2024 15:49

Hang on, hang on...."They are both biological males" - really?
We don't know what "gender eligibility tests" they failed yet. It may be testosterone levels.

No, the IBA have said it wasn’t testosterone levels.

TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 15:52

MellersSmellers · 01/08/2024 15:49

Hang on, hang on...."They are both biological males" - really?
We don't know what "gender eligibility tests" they failed yet. It may be testosterone levels.

It wasn't. It was chromosomal

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 15:53

MellersSmellers · 01/08/2024 15:49

Hang on, hang on...."They are both biological males" - really?
We don't know what "gender eligibility tests" they failed yet. It may be testosterone levels.

It is not testosterone levels. The IBA stated it was not testosterone levels in their statement. There is a link up thread if you wish to read it.

TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 15:53

If they hadn't taken part in high level professional sports they may have never known about their medical condition

Even if this were true, it doesn't matter. They know now. They can compete in their sex class.

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:53

These are not men. They do not have XY chromosomes, were assigned female at birth based on genitalia, grew up as girls and have always lived and competed as women. Female hormone levels occur on a spectrum (just like all most all biological traits - being 190cm doesn’t make a woman a man) and theirs is naturally on the higher end.

You have grabbed onto a rumor posted based on remarks from the Putin stooge who headed the IBC before it was disbanded for overwhelming corruption. The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

Transvestigating female athletes harms all women, and it sends the message that women who are too good at their sport or don’t fit gender stereotypes must be men.

TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 15:53

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:53

These are not men. They do not have XY chromosomes, were assigned female at birth based on genitalia, grew up as girls and have always lived and competed as women. Female hormone levels occur on a spectrum (just like all most all biological traits - being 190cm doesn’t make a woman a man) and theirs is naturally on the higher end.

You have grabbed onto a rumor posted based on remarks from the Putin stooge who headed the IBC before it was disbanded for overwhelming corruption. The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

Transvestigating female athletes harms all women, and it sends the message that women who are too good at their sport or don’t fit gender stereotypes must be men.

This is nonsense. Read the thread.

WickedSerious · 01/08/2024 15:54

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:53

These are not men. They do not have XY chromosomes, were assigned female at birth based on genitalia, grew up as girls and have always lived and competed as women. Female hormone levels occur on a spectrum (just like all most all biological traits - being 190cm doesn’t make a woman a man) and theirs is naturally on the higher end.

You have grabbed onto a rumor posted based on remarks from the Putin stooge who headed the IBC before it was disbanded for overwhelming corruption. The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

Transvestigating female athletes harms all women, and it sends the message that women who are too good at their sport or don’t fit gender stereotypes must be men.

'Transvestigating' is my new favourite word.

TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 15:54

The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

No they haven't. The only 'proof' they have referenced for classification are their passports.

CoffeeCatsAndVodka · 01/08/2024 15:55

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:53

These are not men. They do not have XY chromosomes, were assigned female at birth based on genitalia, grew up as girls and have always lived and competed as women. Female hormone levels occur on a spectrum (just like all most all biological traits - being 190cm doesn’t make a woman a man) and theirs is naturally on the higher end.

You have grabbed onto a rumor posted based on remarks from the Putin stooge who headed the IBC before it was disbanded for overwhelming corruption. The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

Transvestigating female athletes harms all women, and it sends the message that women who are too good at their sport or don’t fit gender stereotypes must be men.

Please can you link to that IOC report. I'm fairly sure someone upthread posted a link to the report that said they were XY as per the test that was done.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 15:55

To all readers who are still thinking that 'women with high testosterone' is a plausible phrase to use, female people do not have naturally produced testosterone that overlaps with male people under about 50 years old.

This is from a PCOS advocate on twitter.

PCOS raises female testosterone to up to 5.5 nmol/L (and above 4 can cause serious issues).
5-ARD raised Caster's testosterone to 21 nmol/L.

twitter.com/NathanielHart72/status/1550916276490477568?s=20&t=E8muLvV5kUEpbPeemz8zwQ

And here is a very handy chart.

A woman has to box a man today at the Olympics. AIBU to be scared for her?
BustyLaRoux · 01/08/2024 15:55

Well watching that footage has brought me to tears. Watchjng a woman getting battered by a man is abhorrent. How can this be called sport?

Naunet · 01/08/2024 15:56

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:53

These are not men. They do not have XY chromosomes, were assigned female at birth based on genitalia, grew up as girls and have always lived and competed as women. Female hormone levels occur on a spectrum (just like all most all biological traits - being 190cm doesn’t make a woman a man) and theirs is naturally on the higher end.

You have grabbed onto a rumor posted based on remarks from the Putin stooge who headed the IBC before it was disbanded for overwhelming corruption. The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

Transvestigating female athletes harms all women, and it sends the message that women who are too good at their sport or don’t fit gender stereotypes must be men.

Oh god, another one - evidence please.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 15:56

Angela is a legend! #nomalesinwomensport

CatusFlatus · 01/08/2024 15:56

OneNewUser · 01/08/2024 10:56

From an admittedly quick google it is not at all clear whether they are intersex, biologically female with high testosterone levels (really difficult - definite advantage but should we penalise women for having a medical condition?) or transgender women. Failing a testosterone test does not automatically mean someone is biologically male. It’s not clear cut at all, so starting this thread calling them ‘men’ is also starting from a specific viewpoint…

It wasn't a testosterone test they failed. It was a gender (sex) test, presumably genetic testing.

mumedu · 01/08/2024 15:56

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:53

These are not men. They do not have XY chromosomes, were assigned female at birth based on genitalia, grew up as girls and have always lived and competed as women. Female hormone levels occur on a spectrum (just like all most all biological traits - being 190cm doesn’t make a woman a man) and theirs is naturally on the higher end.

You have grabbed onto a rumor posted based on remarks from the Putin stooge who headed the IBC before it was disbanded for overwhelming corruption. The IOC has run additional tests and confirmed these are females who pass all requirements for hormone levels and anti-doping rules.

Transvestigating female athletes harms all women, and it sends the message that women who are too good at their sport or don’t fit gender stereotypes must be men.

Wrong

user1471538275 · 01/08/2024 15:57

@AGoingConcern

They are men. They do have XY chromosomes.

They are likely to have DSD and have been brought up falsely thinking they were female. Whilst this is sad for them personally, it has been used by their coaches and themselves to give themselves a physical advantage in a category they do not belong in.

They should not be allowed to fight at the Olympics. They have been disallowed at other women's competitions because they are NOT women.

What they look like is utterly irrelevant.

They are there to cheat and win and they do not give a crap who they hurt along the way.

WickedSerious · 01/08/2024 15:57

Naunet · 01/08/2024 15:56

Oh god, another one - evidence please.

It's like the time my four year old DD wanted a debit card.

steff13 · 01/08/2024 15:58

Sarvanga24 · 01/08/2024 10:42

I am also confused by the article and no wiser for Googling further. There seems to be queries around both these participants, although visually one obviously seems a bigger problem.

Edit: Oh right, am with it now. It's not that they're fighting each other, they are both fighting in different competitions as women. I misunderstood entirely.

Edited

Oh my gosh, thanks for clearing that up. I was trying to figure out what the problem was with two biological men fighting each other.

Pharticle · 01/08/2024 15:58

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TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 15:59

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I'm sorry, so you think it's ok for men to beat up women in the name of sport? Seriously?

AGoingConcern · 01/08/2024 15:59

TheKeatingFive · 01/08/2024 15:53

This is nonsense. Read the thread.

I’ve read plenty of the absolute garbage that’s been posted. It’s disgusting.

These are women. They do not have XY chromosomes. Deciding that the disgraced head of the Russian-controlled IBC that had to be decertified because it was absurdly corrupt is the only source of truth tells me that you are seeking out only information that confirms what you want to believe with zero regard to the source and then ignoring everything else.

High natural testosterone levels don’t make someone male. GCs cant insist that sex is unchangeable and determined solely by chromosomes and birth sex but then turn around and declare males who meet those criteria men.

Helleofabore · 01/08/2024 16:00

Some reading

The International Olympic Committee framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of
gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness for female athletesInternational Olympic Committee framework on
fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of
gender identity and sex variations does not protect fairness
for female athletes

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/sms.14581

Tommy R. Lundberg, Ross Tucker, Kerry McGawley, Alun G. Williams, Grégoire P. Millet, Øyvind Sandbakk, Glyn Howatson, Gregory A. Brown, Lara A. Carlson, Sarah Chantler, Mark A. Chen, Shane M. Heffernan, Neil Heron, Christopher Kirk, Marie H. Murphy, Noel Pollock, Jamie Pringle, Andrew Richardson, Jordan Santos-Concejero, Georgina K. Stebbings, Ask Vest Christiansen, Stuart M. Phillips, Cathy Devine, Carwyn Jones, Jon Pike, Emma N. Hilton

Perspectives:

The IOC framework on fairness, inclusion and nondiscrimination on the basis of gender identity and sex variations is misaligned with current scientific and medical evidence and offers insufficient protection of fair competition for female athletes within a female category. Also, it does not adequately engage female athletes, who are primary stakeholders in their sport. Male pubertal development results in large performance advantages in athletic sports, which necessitates a female category that excludes male advantages, to ensure equal opportunity through fair competition for female athletes at all levels of sport. There is currently no evidence that testosterone suppression in transgender women can reverse male development and negate male advantages. In contrast, there is convincing evidence that the male advantage persists even when testosterone is suppressed. As a result, sports face the uncomfortable reality that the inclusion of transgender women in female sports categories cannot be reconciled with fairness, and in some instances safety, for females in athletic sports. The IOC must reconsider its framework and revise the 10 principles to reflect scientific evidence and fundamental principles of fair competition. We also recommend implementing a system to enable female stakeholders to be consulted in this matter and to have their voices heard, recognized, and valued.

There is absolutely no need for any poster to declare that others are sex fascists because they don't like that science rejects their philosophical belief. All that is ever needed is to stick with evidence.

Here is another good paper about 'testosterone'.

The New Zealand review of whether IOC 10nm/l would work to reduce advantage. It is actually rather a good explainer.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103

Transwoman Elite Athletes: Their Extra Percentage Relative to Female Physiology
Alison K Heather, Stacy T. Sims, Academic Editor and Christopher T. Minson, Academic Editor

August 2022

Abstract:

There is increasing debate as to whether transwoman athletes should be included in the elite female competition. Most elite sports are divided into male and female divisions because of the greater athletic performance displayed by males. Without the sex division, females would have little chance of winning because males are faster, stronger, and have greater endurance capacity. Male physiology underpins their better athletic performance including increased muscle mass and strength, stronger bones, different skeletal structure, better adapted cardiorespiratory systems, and early developmental effects on brain networks that wires males to be inherently more competitive and aggressive. Testosterone secreted before birth, postnatally, and then after puberty is the major factor that drives these physiological sex differences, and as adults, testosterone levels are ten to fifteen times higher in males than females. The non-overlapping ranges of testosterone between the sexes has led sports regulators, such as the International Olympic Committee, to use 10 nmol/L testosterone as a sole physiological parameter to divide the male and female sporting divisions. Using testosterone levels as a basis for separating female and male elite athletes is arguably flawed. Male physiology cannot be reformatted by estrogen therapy in transwoman athletes because testosterone has driven permanent effects through early life exposure. This descriptive critical review discusses the inherent male physiological advantages that lead to superior athletic performance and then addresses how estrogen therapy fails to create a female-like physiology in the male. Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.

Conclusion:

Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.

The current IOC regulations allow transwomen athletes to compete if testosterone levels have been lowered to <10 nmol/L for 12 months prior to competition. While this begins to address the advantageous effects of circulating testosterone on athletic performance, it does not take into account the advantage afforded by testosterone exposure prior to transitioning. The existing data suggests that lowering testosterone to less than 10 nmol/L for 12 months decreases muscle mass but not to biological female levels and despite the decrease in mass, muscle strength can be maintained, especially if concurrently exercising. Estrogen therapy does not affect most of the anatomical structures in the biological male that provide a physiological benefit. Hemoglobin levels are lowered by estrogen therapy, and consequently, maximum aerobic effort may be lower, but this parameter will only be manifested if testosterone levels are suppressed to levels within the biological female range and maintained for extended periods of time. Reported studies show it is difficult to continuously suppress testosterone in transgender women. Given that the percentage difference between medal placings at the elite level is normally less than 1%, there must be confidence that an elite transwoman athlete retains no residual advantage from former testosterone exposure, where the inherent advantage depending on sport could be 10–30%. Current scientific evidence can not provide such assurances and thus, under abiding rulings, the inclusion of transwomen in the elite female division needs to be reconsidered for fairness to female-born athletes.

This dailymail link discusses it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-12111455/The-trans-advantage-womens-sports-explained.html

WickedSerious · 01/08/2024 16:00

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