Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

[PONZOL]

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

Ah okay. We are waiting to hear about the military but haven't seen any announcements yet.

Well, it’s a step in the right direction. Pensioners not on benefits won’t be getting winter fuel payments anymore, so that’s a good move too.

Weird comparison. I’m a private sector worker and I’ve had a 10% plus pay increase ever year for the last seven years. I don’t begrudge anyone anything. If your private company isn’t paying you properly, start looking around.

They've already used the Rwanda charter flight to return people who don't belong here. No massive expense or new laws needed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rwanda-scheme-flights-deportation-vietnam-migrants-b2585708.html

Yes I think the starting salary for a junior doctor is low, especially when compared to Nz and aus, and yes I think it is a difficult training track with all the uncertainty and moving around. But whenever you look at the pay rate remember to add a c23% employer pension contribution from the public purse (https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pensions/additional-pensions-advice/nhs-pension-contribution-rates)

my dc are currently looking at careers and I have reminded them that they MUST look at the employer pension contributions when looking at the pay. When I started in a graduate role my employer pension contribution was 3%. My doctor friends all now have £1m + pension funds in their 40s and the moving around and unsociable shifts long behind them. This is the kind of big picture I’m trying to point out to my dc weighing up medicine.

Agree. Ideally there would be two models - govt pays for med school and training with a lock in; or individual ponies up the cash and is free to follow the money. We can't have our cake and eat it.

22% is the bare minimum Jnr Doctors should be offered. Their salaries are dismal and compare very very badly with other European countries. It used to be a highly valued career like many others but the opportunities to supplement income privately really aren't there until they hit consultant level and the whole system is built on this carrot of consultancy building massive resentment as doctors spend a decade or more in no-mans land of "junior doctoring" . Even the name is insulting after a decade of work.

I am not a doctor, nor have anyone close to me. I find it telling that friends who are and have achieved the heady heights of consultancy are actively discouraging their children from following them into the profession.

What I would like to see is a proper review done with decent doctor and nursing input to see how we could improve how the NHS is run. I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't enough fat in the system to pay people properly and build new hospitals.

Completely and utterly not true. Pharmacist and nurse prescribers are able to prescribe anything within the remit of their practice including chemotherapy. They tend to do a better job than their medic counterparts as well!

Also in addition to my initial post, I do not begrudge the junior doctors receiving a pay rise - it is more than deserved! I do believe that other health care professionals that have taken on what originally was doctors work load also need to be sufficiently compensated.

Sorry, I might have misinterpreted your comment (I wasn't the original person you were responding to and therefore missed any previous context so will read further back)...I was trying to show that GPs are often reported to be the most likely to suffer burnout amongst medical professionals. I'm a mature medical student and have many unhappy GP friends so it's close to my heart.

Freezing the pay of 650 MP’s is not going to cover the pay rise of approx 75k junior doctors

You think it isn’t true? I’ve heard GPs interviewed about this numerous times in the media and burnout and stress are common reasons! I’m sure you can find this out by googling!

@TooBigForMyBoots

The previous government also used to use aeroplanes to deport people. I know that because when they used to try and deport murderers and rapists, lefties used to get in a terrible tizzy and prevent the flights from leaving.

Many of us are full-time NHS consultants who have never done a single day’s private work. The lure of private medicine does not apply to everyone. I am a clinician, not a business person and cannot imagine charging that rate!

I don’t know if this deal will be accepted so people should not get too excited. Doctors in training that I follow on Twitter are saying not to accept the offer.

Do you mean lawyers and courts then upheld the law that Parliament itself set?

Perhaps the Home Office should operate within the law or Parliament should change the law?

Novel i know.

Also one of the highest suicide rates and a lot getting to that magical end goal in their 40s only to find themselves single, childless and devoid of friends or hobbies because they spent their 20s and 30s being driven like slaves with zero respect for their health or life outside work. Not much point retiring rich if you have nothing to retire to.

I'm sure we are all broadly supportive of each other's opinions here - my request for a source was in response to @Bignanna comment, which seemed to suggest that a pay rise wasn't worth it for GPs because it would have no effect. I think most people would say that pay does make a difference to how you internalise the pressures of your job (whatever that is!).

They will find it because it is essential to pay our doctors a fairer wage. Perhaps if millions hadn't been lost in fraud, dodgy PPE contracts and mates rates under the Tories we wouldn't be in this mess

I didn’t say that at all. I was making a point about stress and burnout!

Increasing pay for public sector workers does not impact inflation in the same way as wage rises in the private sector - because it doesn't impact prices. Those doctors will now pay tax on the pay, spend that money - being taxed when they do creating more income elsewhere in the economy which is then taxed. Government finances do not work like a household where you have a certain amount to spend. It works much more like a business where you can create money when you invest in the right things

It's good doctors are getting some of the pay that has been taken off them back. I am pretty pissed off that as a teacher I am only being offered 5.5%. our pay has also fallen in real terms by about a quarter. Other workers including nurses etc should also not be forgotten.

I think if you read the chain in context it's easy to see where the misunderstanding has come from as it's not clear to me. I'm glad we are all on the same page though!

It’s a good start. However, conditions at work should be addressed in hospital. Rest rooms have been removed, staff canteen serves beige, unhealthy food, equipment is outdated and don’t start me on the IT antiquated systems. The workload for GPs is unsustainable. Patients need to remember that the doctor’s job doesn’t finish with seeing the patients. There are all the referrals and admin tasks to be seen to plus evidence that the doctors have continued to learn and reflect with all the attendant tick box exercises. Patient demands can often be totally unreasonable - they don’t value what they consider to be ‘free’. Rant over.

I’m pleased that this govt has moved quickly to bring a resolution to junior doctors poor pay. There are a few posters on here who obviously haven’t got a clue. Medical students have to obtain the top grades at A level to then try and obtain a place on a very competitive university course. The course is then long, arduous and rigorous both clinically and theoretically.
Newly qualified doctors have huge responsibilities from the start. Generally they are the first port of call to review sick and deteriorating patients.
They have been massively underpaid. I’m a bank nurse on the lowest possible grade, doing a basic role and I earn more than a first year junior doctor. I just don’t understand how the pay has got this bad. Most NHS health professionals are on the agenda for change pay scale. If newly qualified doctors were on this they would have to be near to the top due to their role and responsibilities. It is totally galling that Physician’s Associates are paid far more without the training and knowledge doctors require. They cannot prescribe, order X Rays and have to ask JDs to do this. They also work social hours and often get the training junior doctors should be getting but aren’t.
A substantial pay rise is not just that - it’s about pay restoration due to the massive underpayment over the years.
As for someone saying they shouldn’t be able to strike or work elsewhere, well! - just pay them a decent salary commensurate with the very skilled and difficult role they have and they then they won’t need to.
I speak as a mother of a DC who is a junior doctor and have witnessed everything they have been through, most of it hellish.

A really good point. DD is a natural work hard play hard and is pretty resilient.

However given the shortage of training places she really ought to be dropping the "play" and focussing on preparing for the exams. She lost a huge chunk of social life in the middle of her University years to lockdown. As it turns out she loves where she is living and has made tons of friends. Being happy and balanced will make her a better doctor, but may mean she loses the chance to continue her career in the UK as others really are going home after a long shift to study for the next set of exams. I also suspect she will want to stay where she is, though given the shortage of either locum/CTF job and training positions, she really needs to keep moving to where the work is.

More pay does not help when there are not enough jobs.

Give them a chance! They’ve been in power less than a month.

She's in her 20s based on your description and you think she should drop fun activities in order to work full time and then go home and study for exams? I can understand that there are some young people who are incredibly driven and desperately want to do everything necessary to achieve their dream to qualify as doctors. As a parent, I'd of course be proud and supportive, but very concerned about them. I cannot get my head around actively encouraging your child to put themselves through that though.

They can train to become doctors. Open to everyone. Just get the grades, compete for entry, complete med school and work as a trainee for 8-10 years. Anyone can do it really