Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

[PONZOL]

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

But this is not taken from public funds so what is your argument?

@Everanewbie you forgot to list that as well as a pension (much worse than it used to be), they have to pay GMC fees, which are a decent chunk per year, plus fees of several £1000 for every exam they need to take over the 8 plus years post qualifying training. Plus, when they are taking exams to get to the next level, even if they do well, if they aren't promoted they have to pay for and take those exams again.

Yeah, its not great, is it? I work in financial services. Exams I need or want are financed by the company. My phone is provided. My laptop is provided. If I need to go on a course it is paid for any any overnights/travel is expensed in full. My CII/PFS fees are paid by the company. My husband thinks this is amazing. I don't! They want me to do it, they pay!!

Personally, I feel that pay alone is only a part of the problem. The conditions and brutal allocation of training positions are awful. But it is still a rewarding career and we shouldn't compare apples and pears like the PP comparing an F1 to a carpet fitter.

How strictly is your performance managed out of interest? I think this is something that public sector workers in general don't appreciate. Relative is a TPD and feels that lack of professionalism and poor clinical performance is an ever increasing problem in trainees. How does your company approach multiple exam failures? Or repeated absences/lateness? I would imagine the private sector would be much less tolerant of poor performance.

It was indeed Sunak's fault but how else was Furlough and the covid shut down to be funded? Every time I ventirednit was disproportionate, I was vilified as a grannie killer on here.

What would Labour have done during Covid?

One certainty is that the British public shut down largely for the NHS. The NHS did not reopen promptly for us. Many services shifted theirnesponsibiloties for BP, weighing, etc to individuals or pharmacists. It was unsafe for pharmacists or shop workers to render public facing services but it was unsafe for NHS workers to do so. I've never figured that one out or got a straight answer from anyone who works in the NHS.

Public sector workers are assessed in exactly the same way as those in the private sector. The difference is that getting rid of someone who performs badly is an incredibly lengthy and tedious process.

@BeatenbySassafras I have just changed jobs actually so I'll come back to you in 6 months! In previous jobs I have been pretty closely monitored and if our output is not on point questions are soon asked with undertones of PIPs etc. There isn't too much room for underperformance. What I would say is that pay rises beyond a few crumbs seem to be more or less a thing of the past with only those changing jobs seeming to get decent uplifts.

DH has experienced a real mixed bag. One trainee does bunks, others aren't up to it or aren't showing much progress. I'm not sure they'll progress but neither will they be immediately pulled up like I would be in the private sector. Some are brilliant but few seem to show the willingness to learn that he feels him and his contemporaries had. But I also remind him that that is more or less what was said to him when he was working is bollocks off and being far too deferential to consultants and seniors that were just being assholes and enjoying the power.

By the sounds of it though I do think trainees are more aware of their rights and are less likely to accept being treated badly which is a good thing. But I'm not 100% sure there isn't anything in a general lack of graft from the modern crop by comparison.

mumsarewine - you really are talking some bunkum. There are plenty of jobs in the NHS for doctors -there is competition in popular subjects but that does not mean there are not enough jobs.

Oh wait. It actually happened during last 14 years!

...and not paying the Doc's a substantial pay rise has costs too, longer waiting lists, more people not in work, poorer health, seeing GP more often & then more complex treatment when they do eventually get seen.

Plus, fewer junior Doc's means fewer consultants over the next decades, not great as we age.

I really do fail to see how a <£1bn net of additional public spending is going to fuel inflation.

Fullfact explains, based on a 35% pay increase, not 22% over 2 years, so even less strain on the public purse.

https://fullfact.org/health/junior-doctors-pay-restoration/

mumsneed wine-health care is a 24/7/365 profession.

People work on call rotas, shifts , straight hours etc- so do loads of jobs with high pressure repsonsibilities.
40 hrs is the Generic work schedule and that does include on call shifts witihin those hours -not on top for most weeks. Days off after wards, half days are common.
Most F1s do not become consultants - mode medical students become GPs - that has always been the case.

YOu are trying to conflate the working conditions of the 1990s to present day. Juniro doctors today - do work hard, they do have to pass exams, they do unsocial hours -so do lots of jobs if you wish to progress

Junior drs no longer do 120+ hrs per week, thank god-so over the past 25 yrs thigns have improved massively
Pay has gone up just not with inflation - name a public sector job that has kept up with inflation
Exams are not often and 3 months studying and not partying to progress is not a huge hardship
Juniros have done their FY1/ jobs or equivalents for years and headed overseas -this is nto new. The majority come back, a number do not - nothing knew there

Yes I work hard, yes healthcare is stressful at times, have I done untold extra unpaid hours yes-but I would still choose to do what I do now. F1s are having a tough time like every newly qualified doctor does. Competition for favoured jobs is hard and so it should be,

£32K for your first job where you are supervised for the majority of your time, well supported and for 1 year is not bad but could be better but them so could any figure - compare as much as you like -no one makes you choose medicine

Can the woe is me, leave if you want to, go overseas if you want to but junior doctors are not the most hard done on the planet.

Can the woe is me, leave if you want to, go overseas if you want to but junior doctors are not the most hard done on the planet

They are and the patients will be the ones that are hard done by if it is not addressed

Pharmacist here and as the username suggests, yes we can and do prescribe. This includes chemotherapy but hospital's internal protocols and processes will restrict the prescribing to those who have specialised in oncology and malignant haematology.

I can legally write a prescription for any chemotherapy drug just like a GP could (but wouldn't as it is not my area of expertise)

Thanks for this insight. I have noticed a tendency among some docs to underestimate the pressures in the private sector. Particularly professions traditionally viewed as equivalent - law, accountancy, financial services etc. There is also huge variation in pay vs NHS. The ceiling may be higher but floor is also much lower with few actually making it to partner level.

@BeatenbySassafras yes I agree. Many are under the most incredible pressure day in day out, what with the disruption, the shift work, GMC and PALS; they deserve what they get and some. But yes, there is a particular tendency from the vocal, BMA talking heads to make out like medicine is the only profession where anyone works hard or faces pressure. Or are expected to start low before the higher echelons are reached. As I've said up front, disingenuous comparisons are made with FY1 base salaries in the lowest paying rotations with experienced tradespeople or perhaps management positions in supermarkets. And completely disregard the hugely beneficial pension scheme that is possibly worth another £15kpa. and the career path that is there if they excel.

But would I recommend a career in medicine to my son after seeing what DH does? Possibly not. There are easier and quicker ways to make 100k.

Clearly they don’t say this to other surgeons!

If a surgeon can't afford to send a child to private school, then who the hell can? This isn't a thread about private schooling, but someone who dedicates 20 years to become a surgeon should receive a remuneration package that offers access to the 1% club. If not, what's the point in all that effort?

Doctors are getting as bad as teachers, always moaning. If they don't like it, why don't they quit to become carpet fitters? Most of what doctors do will soon be able to be done by AI anyway.

Bingo !! Was waiting for that comment 😂😂. Don't like it, leave. OK, they will, like teachers. We have 14 vacancies this Sept - anyone want a nice easy job ?

I wonder whether the vacancies are at a hospital near to @OonaStubbs ? Hope he/she stays well until the AI docs are fully trained for action. Perhaps PAs can step in in the meantime? They could even be on standby when a patient doesn’t fit neatly into an algorithm. Excellent, all sorted.

Good!
About time their worth was recognised and we stopped hemorrhaging expensively trained doctors from the NHS.
I'm amazing so many mnetters seem to disagree.

Pensioners

MN is well known for knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I would rather pay for a doctor, than a illegal immigrate.

I believe it's a good move. Value our doctors, nurses & teachers.
It's more expensive not to invest in health and education.