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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Junior doctors offered 22% pay rise

531 replies

PONZOL · 29/07/2024 13:18

How and where will the government get the money from I wonder?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjqe82lk5g5o

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:07

Doctors pay a hefty amount each month for that pension. It's not free. And they'll not get it until they are 67 (currently). Not much help
to a 23 year old trying to pay rent, who will have to move every year if lucky enough to get into training. Pay £000s to do exams that are compulsory, pay £000s in indemnity costs and £000s to the thoroughly useless GMC. £00s to just park at work.
Want a doctor, treat them better.

ll09sm · 30/07/2024 09:19

Alexandra2001 · 30/07/2024 08:02

So when Hunt/Sunak were in power, it was all their fault inflation went to over 11% ?

The costs to the treasury for this junior Doc's pay rise is v small and what would be your alternative to this and to the (more expensive) pay review body rises?
.... on going strikes, more staff shortages, longer waiting lists, worse staff moral... all ok by you.

People like you seem to be getting all hung up on a 22% pay rise, over 2 years, without even considering the alternatives but perhaps you ve PHI and don't consider anyone else?

Errr, yes It was Sunak’s fault. He was the chancellor when almost £1 trillion of quantitative easing and borrowing happened within 2 short years.

That’s how inflations works. It doesn’t just happen by magic. There is always a series of events leading up to it. And it’s always the government of the day that causes it through incompetence and/or corruption.

Giving any group of people a 22% pay rise at a time when inflation has only just come down, through the public purse, and by borrowing money no less is stupid.

uneffingbelievable · 30/07/2024 09:20

mumsneedwine- pension correct you pay in as a doctor and some of that as you get more senior is topsliced to subsidise lower paid pensions.

No you do not have to move every year for training -FY1 and FY2 can be far part but most CT and SPR rotations are in a smaller location to allow commuting

Exams cost -always have, that is career progression

Most professions have a regulatory body whom people have to pay into - this is not a unique cost

Hours - most are not working more than 44 hrs per week-if you choose to do extra shifts then that is your choice.

It is a tough job but seriously conditions have improved and no it has not been a pay cut of 35%- very few peoples pay whatever the job has kept up with inflation

ispecialiseinthis · 30/07/2024 09:28

uneffingbelievable · 30/07/2024 09:20

mumsneedwine- pension correct you pay in as a doctor and some of that as you get more senior is topsliced to subsidise lower paid pensions.

No you do not have to move every year for training -FY1 and FY2 can be far part but most CT and SPR rotations are in a smaller location to allow commuting

Exams cost -always have, that is career progression

Most professions have a regulatory body whom people have to pay into - this is not a unique cost

Hours - most are not working more than 44 hrs per week-if you choose to do extra shifts then that is your choice.

It is a tough job but seriously conditions have improved and no it has not been a pay cut of 35%- very few peoples pay whatever the job has kept up with inflation

40 hours is the basic hours
Shifts/on-calls are not an option

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:29

@uneffingbelievable 😂😂assume you do g know many F1s this year ? Lottery to where they ended up with many not even knowing where they will be for F2. No jobs yet.

GMC dies nothing for doctors but costs them £475 a year. For what ? PAs, who earn more, will only pay £200. Why ?

Hours ? Are you deranged ? Rotas often schedule 78 hours a week - no say in it, that's what you gave to do. Choice ? How ?

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:30

And you are moved during training wherever service provision is required. Tough if you're partner can't move, they don't care.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:31

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:03

@Everanewbie most current F1s will never become consultants. There are not enough jobs.

Point taken. But nor are they likely to remain as an F1 for their entire career. And the rewards out there are not comparable to carpet fitting.

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:31

Apologies for spelling. I'm angry. Young doctors being treated like shit. And the public think that's good.

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:35

@Everanewbie actually most will likely remain on F2 pay for many years, as so few training posts. IF (& it's a big if) they can get a job.

And I know many trades who earn way above what a doctor ever will. Not saying that's wrong, but doctors are v v badly paid for their skills in this country. They are not elsewhere, so strangely that's where they might all end up.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:35

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:07

Doctors pay a hefty amount each month for that pension. It's not free. And they'll not get it until they are 67 (currently). Not much help
to a 23 year old trying to pay rent, who will have to move every year if lucky enough to get into training. Pay £000s to do exams that are compulsory, pay £000s in indemnity costs and £000s to the thoroughly useless GMC. £00s to just park at work.
Want a doctor, treat them better.

Yes, Doctors do pay a contribution to the pension scheme, which is not insignificant, however the benefits still considerably outweigh what is generally available in the private sector. And it is not true that they must wait until they are 67 to receive pension benefits. They can access benefits from age 55 albeit with an actuarial reduction, as per any scheme. The full benefit is based on 67.

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:40

@Everanewbie woo hoo. So a 23 year old should be paid £15.33 for holding the bleep over night because one day they might get a nice pension. That's ok then. They can tell their landlord and power companies that and I'm sure they'll defer their bills for 32 years.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:40

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:35

@Everanewbie actually most will likely remain on F2 pay for many years, as so few training posts. IF (& it's a big if) they can get a job.

And I know many trades who earn way above what a doctor ever will. Not saying that's wrong, but doctors are v v badly paid for their skills in this country. They are not elsewhere, so strangely that's where they might all end up.

Look, I don't dispute that life is tough for Doctors. I am married to one who has just completed training. And I know that it is getting more competitive at foundation level than how he had it.

But to pretend being a Dr is comparable to your typical tradesperson is just disingenuous. Yes, a skilled and experienced sparky might demand £150 per hour. If you want to make the comparison, compare an F1 with an apprentice, or a new hire, not someone at the peak of their career.

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:41

And I'm pretty sure many many people have excellent pensions. Bankers for example.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:43

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:40

@Everanewbie woo hoo. So a 23 year old should be paid £15.33 for holding the bleep over night because one day they might get a nice pension. That's ok then. They can tell their landlord and power companies that and I'm sure they'll defer their bills for 32 years.

I don't think that is a fair rate. I agree with you, I am just trying to ensure that you are fair with your comparisons.

Point me to a 23 year old earning more than an F1, legally, then fair play to them.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:43

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:41

And I'm pretty sure many many people have excellent pensions. Bankers for example.

FFS. When you're struggling, wheel out bankers.

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:44

@Everanewbie I know many students who left school 5 years ago who went on to become plumbers or window fitters who earn well into 6 figures. The only doctors who left school 5 years ago who earn near that are abroad.

As someone who is helping young people go into medicine this makes it v hard to encourage. If your husband has just completed training he is very v lucky if he's stayed in one place for 7 years (assume you have children). He must also speak to the younger doctors who worry about lack of training spots now.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:44

But Tories!! PPE!!!

noworklifebalance · 30/07/2024 09:44

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:41

And I'm pretty sure many many people have excellent pensions. Bankers for example.

And a hefty bonus is a possibility and sometimes guaranteed

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:45

@Everanewbie well I used to be one, so I know about bankers. OK with you to use an example that I know about ?

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:46

@Everanewbie you are married to a doctor, who worked during Covid. Yet you make a 'joke' about PPE. That is sickening.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 09:46

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:44

@Everanewbie I know many students who left school 5 years ago who went on to become plumbers or window fitters who earn well into 6 figures. The only doctors who left school 5 years ago who earn near that are abroad.

As someone who is helping young people go into medicine this makes it v hard to encourage. If your husband has just completed training he is very v lucky if he's stayed in one place for 7 years (assume you have children). He must also speak to the younger doctors who worry about lack of training spots now.

23 year old plumbers earning £100k?? I'm sorry, thats either a rare success story, cash in hand working hands to the bone, or, more likely, bullshit.

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:47

I know many many 23 year olds that earn way above £32,000. Graduate schemes start at that for 21 year olds !

mumsneedwine · 30/07/2024 09:50

Sorry, can't debate with anyone making light of PPE issues. I lost an ex student due to the Tories providing plastic bags as PPE in ED. I hope those responsible end up in jail.

Want a doctor. Pay them and treat them better. V v simple.

Everanewbie · 30/07/2024 10:01

Well. Let me try.

PPE. I use that as an example because it seems like those who oppose the Con party wheel that one out because it feels like a gotcha point. Yes, DH worked throughout the pandemic. Yes, early on him and his colleagues were terrified. Quickly, they became frustrated by the amount of elective surgery cancelled while capacity was easily managed. He was home by 3 most days chuntering about how his training would need to be extended because of the lack of numbers. He also calls bullshit on masks, particularly surgical masks as a mitigation. He stresses that they are designed to protect from blood splatters and wound contamination, nothing to do with airborne respiratory viruses. He was frustrated however, when patients that tested +ve with Covid were only noted after he'd examined them, where higher grade PPE would have been used.

Bankers. Well another tired troupe wheeled out when someone wants an example of a perceived overpaid job with little use. Despite some banks having a large government share holding hungover from the financial crisis of 08/09, they are largely private organisations, and I don't see how employee remuneration is any business of anyone accept the employer and employee. I don't have intimate knowledge of each financial institutions pension schemes, but they will be subject to the same limits and allowances as the rest of the world. On the subject of banking, many in that world feel that Doctors would make excellent money managers given their skills at weighing up risk/reward. I found that interesting.

I 100% agree with your last point. If you want Dr's, and good ones, their remuneration package and conditions need to reflect their expertise. And I agree with the uplift whole heartedly. The random placement for training positions is obscene, our relationship and marriage barely survived the relocations from CT to Reg training, fellowships etc.

Where we disagree is that misrepresenting the career prospects, the rewards and pension schemes does the cause no favours. "I know a plumber on £100k" and "we can't access pensions til 67" doesn't pull the wool over anyones eyes.

CasaBianca · 30/07/2024 11:21

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 29/07/2024 16:11

There was a reporter on Politics Live today saying this wasn’t the case.

They are currently being underpaid and the private sector has had big pay rises. They are just keeping U.K. and because of this it won’t affect inflation.

and the private sector has had big pay rises not all the private sector, by far.
I don’t understand your last sentence, sorry.

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