Conversations around race with your partner

[ireallyneedsuppport]

NC for obvious reasons

I'm in an interracial relationship and struggling with DH's reactions to racist incidents.

Recently, a member of his family used a horrible racial slur during an altercation. Instead of being disgusted, my husband's initial reaction was to say the other person "shouldn't have started it" and that if you provoke someone, you should expect them to try to hurt you and that see, you're hurt clearly it worked to try and get to them with the racial slur.

I had to push hard for him to finally acknowledge that what his family member did was horrible. What's even more troubling is that this family member has dated people of color in the past.

This isn't an isolated incident. Whenever there's an issue regarding race, my husband tends to minimise it instead of showing sympathy for the victim. He often sides with or makes excuses for people who have said or done racist things. When we discuss, it always ends in an argument.

As a person of color myself, I find his reactions deeply upsetting and hurtful. It makes me feel unsupported and invalidated in our relationship. I'm not sure how to address this ongoing issue with him or if it's even possible to change his perspective.

Has anyone dealt with a similar situation in an interracial relationship? How did you handle it? Any advice on how to approach this with my husband would be appreciated.

OP, I'm the white partner in a mixed race relationship. In seeking to minimise or deny racism, I think he is gaslighting you.

It's obvious from your posts that you are not stupid, and I believe that you know racism when you see it. I suspect your partner sees it as well, but even on the off-chance that he doesn't, he should be listening to you and acknowledging your perspective.

Honestly, I think he is unlikely to change, and think you have to ask yourself whether you want a future with a man who defends and dismisses racism. It's your life, but I think you deserve better.

For the sake of comparison, I have been with my DH for nearly 30 years and I don't think we have ever had a disagreement about race during that time. We have talked about it often, but I have never sought to minimise his experiences and I wouldn't ever tolerate family members making racist comments (not that my family are that way inclined in any case). I recognise that his experiences as a POC and mine as a white person are inevitably different, and that he will therefore have different insights - I try to listen to those insights and learn from them, rather than assuming that I know best, because that is how a normal respectful relationship works.

For him to say he isn't "motivated" by race just means he doesn't get it at all.

Ot he could mean, you know there are unpleasant people of all ethnicities, religions etc etc. The best remedy to it is just not get involved with them. Nasty words can only do you harm if you let them.

I absolutely do not consider it appropriate for a white person to be telling a POC how to respond to racist language under any circumstances. The only reasonable response in such situations is to listen to the POC and respect their feelings on the matter.

I just don't remotely agree with you. My husband and close friend are black and what they face on a regular basis appalls me. They have no ability to "opt out" of facing racism. And that's bullshit that sticks and stones rubbish. I can't remotely understand as the white partner how race couldn't be a big part of your life when you are in an interracial relationship. And especially if you have children together.

Yes, how can anyone be indifferent to race issues when they have mixed race children? The mind boggles...

Feelings are just that, personal. It doesn't make you or the OP's opinion any more valid than the husbands or anyone else for that matter. Nor does it trump the feelings of the person on the receiving end of whatever abuse was said/done to the alleged racist.

Or of course you can just live in an echo chamber, where you will only consider one side of a situation.

I disagree with you. White people have not experienced racism in the same way as POC, and they do not have the right to tell POC how to feel about racist behaviour. On this subject, a white person's opinions are categorically not "as valid" and given the history of oppression and discrimination, feelings on this subject are never "just personal".

It isn't about considering one side. It is about recognising that, if you do not have lived experience of racism, you have no right to tell people who do have that lived experience what they should feel about it.

In the same way, I wouldn't expect a man to tell me how I should feel about sexism and misogyny.

But surely that is an incredibly insular way to view it. If you want to be listened to, you must also listen. An echo chamber mentality will never progress anything.

Listening to each other is fine. It isn't about creating an echo chamber. But a white person dismissing or minimising the feelings of a POC about racism? No, never acceptable in my view.

A further update, we're still struggling to find common ground on these sensitive topics.

He said he often takes a "devil's advocate" position in our discussions, believing it's important to understand all perspectives, including why people might act in racist ways. While his intention seems to be intellectual exploration, it sometimes feels like he's minimising racist incidents.

Recently, he's acknowledged feeling defensive in these conversations, admitting feeling that it makes him feel like white people are constantly "under attack" sometimes, which has been difficult for me to hear. When I try to explain how racism affects me, he's asked for personal examples from the past decade that have happened to me personally, comparing today's situation favorably to the 1950s to say things are not that bad anymore but I argued it saying why does there have to be a benchmark?This has been challenging for me, as it doesn't fully acknowledge the ongoing impact of systemic racism.

On my end, I find myself needing more emotional support and validation of my experiences as a person of color. While I appreciate intellectual discourse, these issues are deeply personal for me.

We're both trying to understand each other better. He said he's made lots of efforts to change since we've been together and feels like it's never enough, even though he finds continuous change challenging. I've been suggesting resources like podcasts and books and even counselling that we could explore together. He's reluctant and hasn't agreed yet.

Recently, the stress of these discussions, combined with work pressures he's facing in addition to the stress of this, has led him to suggest a short break.

Despite our differences, we're both wanting to working through this. We're just unsure of the best way to do this.

Any advice on how we can bridge our different approaches to these discussions would be greatly appreciated. We're both coming from a place of wanting to understand each other better, even if we're currently struggling to do so effectively.

I'm white, but fwiw I think if your husband is defending racism then he's also racist. I couldn't stay in the relationship.
The fact that he's not even willing to reflect and listen to you tells you everything you need to know.

@Bearpawk he said when things happen he obviously knows they're wrong but feels like that is so blatantly obvious he shouldn't have to point out the obvious

I really feel for you, OP.

Taking on board what you say about wanting to work it out...somehow you need to get him to understand that this is not an intellectual debate for you and he doesn't need to educate you on where people might be coming from or why they might say racist things, he just needs to have your back and make you feel supported. That really is not too much to ask for from a life partner.

I don't honestly know how you can get through to him on this. Or even if you can get through. Especially if he is unwilling to engage with the resources that you're suggesting or counselling etc. It sounds like he thinks that he shouldn't need to change and that you're asking too much of him...but you're really not, you're asking for the bare minimum.

Your husband is a racist in denial. You won't find common ground with him because he doesn't want to understand. He wants to minimize and live an easy life.

@ireallyneedsuppport

Look. Your husband is a racist. It’s that simple. Devil’s Advocate? Racism isn’t a valid alternative to being non-racist.

You’re not ready to accept it yet which is your prerogative but you are fighting a losing battle.

He’s offered you zero concession and wants you to prove how you’ve suffered from racism?

Give over.

Your dp has got so much work to do in order to be able to meet your needs in this area. Crucially, he is reluctant and ambivalent about doing this work. I think 'understanding each other better'is actually a ploy for you to surrender your position and maintain realtions how they've always been. You can't op, you already know that there are fundamental cracks in your relationship. You can drag a horse to water and all that. I would reccomend therapy for you alone, someone who specialises in race and identity stuff.

My soon to be ex DP also says he is playing devil's advocate. This is just not going to get better. It will escalate.
Under the guise of devil's advocate many hurtful things will be said to you. On a day like yesterday when Social Media was full of hate for people of colour, your home will not be a place where you can retreat to and feel safe. It will become another battle ground.
A short break is a very good idea. It is space to really explore your feelings about the relationship. Then decide whether you want to extend the break and don't forget, it's never very bad in the beginning. Just a bit irritating.....then the volume turns up and you will be like a boiling frog.

@elliemillie does he play devils advocate around race or everything? My partner tends to do it about most things.

He does it about everything. You can't actually have a simple conversation without it turning into a debate. He has a PhD in Philosophy and everything is philosophical.
The devil advocacy ranges from the earth being flat, Russia could be winning the war but the media is lying to us, the statics for criminals in the West could be skewed to hide the fact that the majority of crimes are perpetrated by brown people. If you counter any of these with anything close to reality, he claims you are believing main stream media. He has found a way to offend all of my friends both white and black so now I contain him outside my social circle. It's just tiring 😫

I don’t think you need to understand his point of view better. He needs to stop making excuses for racism. It’s that simple.

So if you want to hurt someone who is black you call them a n**? A person who is not racist would not see the colour of a person’s skin as the basis of an insult in the same way that they wouldn’t see hair or eye colour as the basis of an insult.

@ireallyneedsuppport ive rtft and your latest update. If my partner had cancer, I wouldn’t play Devil’s Advocate about how cancer treatment is funded in the NHS. If my partner was wheelchair bound, I wouldn’t play devil’s advocate about the requirement to make buildings and transport more accessible to those with disabilities. This is because my loved one’s lived experience and painful history in relation to those subjects would never be fodder for intellectual debate. It is good that your DH has acknowledged that his immediate response is to be defensive when these conversations come up and that he feels like white people are always under attack because he is acknowledging a truth that is very obvious to you. What is not good is that your DH clearly does not see enough wrong in his approach to date to seek meaningful change and he will never be a real ally to you. To put it bluntly, he does not care about your feelings on this subject enough to want to change.

Black people in this country are subject to racism and micro aggressions outside of the home on a regular basis. The very least we should be able to hope for is support (rather than devil’s advocacy) at home.

Any advice on how we can bridge our different approaches to these discussions would be greatly appreciated. We're both coming from a place of wanting to understand each other better, even if we're currently struggling to do so effectively.

No further advice other than what you have already suggested such as reading books, etc. You should know that unless he has a sudden epiphany (highly unlikely) you will find that you just have the burden of dealing with any racism that comes your way, with no real support, or understanding coming from your partner. If you have no one in rl to talk about these things with, I dread to think of the toll this will take on your mental, and physical health. All the best.