Parents not wanting to parent/tell their child no

[HappyWorkingMummy]

I truly want to know if I am being unreasonable here.

I have loads of experiences with my primary age children's friends and their parents where their parents don't say no to their children and I then do so.

Examples:

Their primary aged child is breaking my children's toys with intention on a play date, parent says nothing and I have to interject.

Their primary aged child is going through my handbag and my personal belongings (keys, card etc) and their parent just sits there and says nothing so I have to interject and say no and tell the child why.

We are out at a restaurant and their primary aged kid runs about all over causing other customers to look frustrated and also walks round the table we are at and starts eating my dinner from my plate with their hands and parent says nothing. I have to find a way to interject.

In shops/gift shops one primary ages child screams if he can't get what he wants and the parent just buys it for him to stop the screaming. The child now knows that screaming and refusing to leave and throwing things off shelves in shops until he gets what he wants works. When the parents are there too my partner and I just walk away with our children and wait outside after we have for what we want (if we buy anything). If it's just me/my partner without the parents there then I/we tell the child we are looking after (not our own but on a play date) to pick the items up they have thrown on the floor and make clear the child will not be getting any treats if the behaviour continues. It works and the child behaves (for a while at least) but the child's own parents never do this.

At a story time event and children are asked to sit on the rug and listen but primary aged child runs and shouts all round the room spoiling things for the other children and parents say nothing... the person running story time tells them to behave each week and looks frustrated.

I also notice that if I ask a child not to do something and they then ask their parents if they can do it, their parent will say ask X (me!). Well, I've already told them no and the parent heard that but is refusing to reinforce it and simply doesn't want to parent.

I don't want to keep having to say no to their child! I've already said no.

These are just a few small examples but I'm noticing so often. I also notice it falls into two camps in our friendship group. The first are the parents who just want an easy life and don't especially want the 'inconvenience' of their child or dealing with their child's moods and negative feelings etc and the second are the parents who think their children can do no wrong and never say no to them.

Are my partner and I horrid parents for raising our children with boundaries (their own while also respecting other peoples)?

We are surrounded by so many parents who don't say no and their child/rens' behaviour impacts negatively on our kids and us too on days out etc,

These kids are neurotypical and, anyway, it's not about the kids' behaviour here (they are kids!) but rather about the fact we have so many friends who never tell their kids no or stop and so we have to sometimes when impacting on us.

How do you deal with this situation where friends' primary aged kids are misbehaving and it's impacting you directly but their parents don't say a peep?

Also, are we too harsh with our own kids?

Should we let our children run wherever they want, let them go through friends' personal possessions, break friends' toys with intention, leave their own dinner and eat someone else's dinner in a restaurant uninvited because they decided when it arrived they wanted that more?

These are just a few examples.

It's frustrating having to repeatedly put boundaries in place with other people's children while parenting your own simply because their kids have no/few boundaries but, even more so, my partner and I are wondering if we are too strict with our children because we DO have these boundaries in place (we know it's a way not only to respect other people but for our kids to respect themselves and feel healthy and secure. No can be good sometimes!).

Would love to hear thoughts.

Well, my kids are way past that age. But no, I don’t remember it being that often. And never, “ask calam”
it’s incredibly hard to say online where you will only present your parenting as exemplary. “I am putting in boundaries. Is that wrong” Yeah, like that’s going to get a yabu. I do wonder what your friends would think of your parenting given no other friend you have parents like you. Just being devils advocate of course because nothing mentioned here sounds wrong on your part. But obviously so iykwim. So where’s the real concern. If it was a moan about certain friend/s I could understand but not the majority and not you questioning whether to give children structure and boundaries is correct. You’d honestly be best having this conversation with your friends and asking them about the differences in your parenting and see if you can come to common ground and address some of your issues with them and maybe find out something about yours too that you could address.

Had a play date with another mum and primary aged child yesterday and the girl was constantly interrupting the conversation between adults, and then followed me around for ages asking a million questions. I was getting frustrated and mum did absolutely nothing. Never heard her say no or correct any behaviour. Same child cycles on pavements and through the town with no regard to other children / people walking and will cycle into them. It won't be long till someone gets hurt but this mum is away with the fairies.

It's rare though. On the whole the kids I know are disciplined and parents do check their kids.

@Commonsenseisnotsocommon When I've joked and asked 'who's in charge' they've often said that with their children being in nursery all week they don't want fall out on the limited time they have them so will swerve the actual boundary setting as it's too upsetting. The mums I know who are sahms don't seem to have the same reluctance and their children are better behaved. Only my experience before you lot come at me with pitchforks.

@userloadsofnumbers Incidentally, we also have a very high proportion of only children in his year - don't mean to be controversial and I know not all 'onlys' are treated like this but at this school they are definitely indulged and never told no!

No pitchforks honestly! 😀
But interestingly my experiences led me to exactly the opposite conclusion.

The children who were in nursery were used to conforming to what was expected in their nursery group and so much better at accepting boundaries. Certainly by the time it came to school they were the ones who adapted easily, were better behaved and didn't expect the world to revolve around them.

And in my experience of hosting birthday parties, play dates etc., only children were much easier to manage as they were used to interaction with adults and tended to listen to what they were asked. It seemed like the children with siblings were more inclined to tune out what the adults said and therefore needed asking more than once to do something.

Again, just my experience.

Stop putting them in situations where they feel like they are always being unfairly treated then when all the other children around them can do what they want, cause havoc, throw tantrums and face no consequences while you're constantly telling them no.

You know it's not your parenting that's bad but your children are going to see you as too strict because your friends don't parent their children, but you don't want to upset the bad parents.

Not all of our friends parent like this but I would say 60% maybe more. It is pretty high!

Hi OP,

I completely agree with the points you make- we put so much effort and time into teaching our boys how we behave together.

the one thing I would say though is that it’s not always ‘simply’ people who can’t be bothered to parent. Children are really difficult to raise, to varying degrees. One of my boys is extremely energetic. I am a psychologist and I work a lot on parenting with other people, yet I find it so hard with my own (not so much my second, but my first is really quite hard work). I hate taking him on play dates but try to push myself to do it. To caveat this I do hold boundaries around the things you describe. But when I see people in the community who seem to have ‘given up’, it’s not always my thinking that they just can’t be bothered.

I’ve worked with loads of people who want to be the way you’ve spoken, but are so burnt out that they just don’t have the capacity to do it. They are well aware and feel very guilty about it, embarrassed and ashamed that they aren’t able to manage their child’s behaviour so they don’t have the confidence to try and enforce in front of other, more confident people. The people I work with, to the outside appear quite fine but maybe slightly more flaky with meet-ups, not so able to plan play dates and find these play dates really overwhelming, often leaving feeling bad - it can take a lot of courage to attend. Unless they chose to confide in you you wouldn’t know.

Similarly some people choose to parent in this way as it aligns with their values, which may be slightly different to my viewpoint but not really for me to judge.

I think I would be quite mindful about setting boundaries on behalf of other parents, it can feel quite judgemental and shaming and you don’t know how that is being perceived by the other person. I would maybe reflect on someone saying to their own child that they need to ask me if they can do something that possibly they are either feeling demoralised and ‘lesser’ than me or that they’re totally pissed off and being a bit sarcastic. In that situation I would simply make excuses and leave rather than try to set a boundary on behalf of another person.

@AquaFurball another poster had, IMO,a way better response to this.

The poster said they would tell their children, who are behaving, that the naughty behaviour is naughty.

We don't take it to this level - we don't tell other people or their kids that they are naughty or say it in front of them - but we have started to speak positively to our kids about their behaviour in front of other parents.

So, our kids are sitting nicely at a restaurant while our friends' two kids are running around we praise them there and then eg well done for sitting so nicely.

In the past we did it when we got home (so as not to offend friends!) but decided this wasn't fair and why should we hide our typical parenting of praising our kids for good behaviour (we would usually praise this when our kids are the only kids there, too) just because someone is parenting so differently.

Thanks for all of this and I'll take some time to reflect.

I understand feeling burnt out. I won't go into it but I really do! I have a lot on my plate. However, I hopefully wouldn't let it negatively impact someone else's experience

However, as to your last point you expect me to leave when we have ordered a meal and are part of the way through eating it? You seriously recommend this as a psychologist?

That my family, my kids, miss out on our food and we are financially out of pocket simply because someone won't tell their child to stop grabbing door from my plate?

Why do we have to miss out and lose money? Then try to seek somewhere else to eat and have to pay all over again?

Similarly in our home you say about just leaving the situation how can we do that when they are in our home? Unless you mean telling them to leave immediately? Surely that will damage a friendship.

I like your level of compassion in the first part of the thread but I think that compassion also needs to extend to people who have paid for a meal and just want to eat it without hands all over it!

I am not judging anyone. I just feel that having a lack of rules harms your child. They will be excluded socially unless you can find another equally useless parent to spend time with.

YANBU. Really really YANBU! I gave my children boundaries and I have heard how great, thoughtful and respectful they are from teachers, Scout leaders, youth leaders, drama group leaders - basically, most adults they interact with. It's not about raising them to be carpets, but being 'citizens of the world'.

Sadly, I think there's some huge fear among parents these days that giving boundaries will lead to a lack of confidence or some kind of mental health issue. It's more likely to be the opposite IMO - getting this bohemian (slightly insulting to Bohemia) attitude from their parents that jars hugely with other areas of their lives will lead to confusion or disillusionment. They could be overlooked for responsibility, they could miss out on rewards, they may go from job to job because they won't understand big money usually requires someone to put in bloody hard work... the list goes on.

A friend posted on Instagram recently to say she was so proud of her 12/13 year old responding 'Fucking amazing' to a question from an authority figure about how he was feeling about life, and I was just 😲 that anyone could feel proud of that. I mean great that he's confident, and yes, I think he has ADHD so has had his struggles, but really - did we need the f-word?!

I hear you OP. Have got some of these in my circle as well. It's infuriating. When will parents understand that children NEED boundaries and rules. It makes them feel secure. Not giving them that is lazy parenting and the children will be penalized for their unruly behaviour because people will avoid them. And I know It's hard. I have got a 14-year old son on the autism spectrum (lower iq than normal but is verbal) at home and I need to repeat non stop what is acceptable behaviour and what is not because he is clueless (and sometimes insolent). So I just want to give up sometimes but that would be giving up on him. And he knows the basics: always says please and thank you, always greets neighbours and leaves them with "have a good day" even if it's in the evening 😄 because it's automatic learning but I'm happy with that because everyone says that he's polite (not when he has his daily tantrums due to me saying no to something, then he's batshit crazy and calls me all the names in the book m). So I have NO tolerance for people wit NT children who can't say no and tell them off when they are acting disruptively. It's so Easy compared to a ND child really. With DS 2 I usually just have to give him a look and he stops whatever it is he's doing that is not correct.

I always believed that if you really love your children then you raise them to behave in ways that other people will like. Basically I just wanted other adults to warm towards my children and therefore treat my children nicely.

You are doing your child a massive disservice if you allow them to be annoying and troublesome to other people. It's actually incredibly selfish parenting because to make your life easier you are inconveniencing those around you and encouraging them to dislike your child. Not great parenting, is it?

I've seen firsthand the effects of this feeble parenting style. The parent works long hours so doesn't ever want to be the 'bad guy' in the precious time they get to spend with their child. Again, it's incredibly selfish and putting their own needs above those of their child. Their child needs to learn how to behave appropriately among it's peers and adults.

Hi OP,

Sorry, I may have misinterpreted something you’d initially said in your thread- of course I don’t think you’d need to leave a meal to avoid this. I suppose I was thinking that if I were in the community (like a park or something) I would make my excuses in a polite way because I would be thinking that me intervening would potentially damage my friendship. I do understand that is a different situation.

If I was out having dinner and this happened with people who I considered friends I might choose to be curious with them directly about their parenting choices and ask what they normally do when stuff like this happens/ or how they would like me to respond in that moment instead of doing it on their behalf. I would probably try to validate the struggle and say something like ‘ah it’s really tricky trying to get youngsters to fit in with things that are more interesting for adults (like going for a meal), do you often go out as a family or is it quite hard?..took us a while to get to the point where we’ve been able to do it’. I think that would be enough to open the conversation about it. Although like we’ve said I am a psyc so I do find speaking like this quite comfortable and I know it isn’t always like this for others. Alongside this I would also feel annoyed that my meal had been ruined.

This is the saddest consequence. Children who are not parented properly and are allowed to do whatever want are often very unpopular. As are adults who think the whole world revolves around them.

Socialising your children requires implementing and enforcing boundaries - from an early age. They need to learn that treats are given occasionally, not all the time. That other people will come before them quite often.

In the 1970s our neighbours bought the child whose birthday it wasn’t a gift so that they had something to open when their sibling was opening theirs. My DM was astounded - and years later it never occurred to me to do that. My two accepted it was the other one’s special day and that was that.

@Catlover12345 I really appreciate you taking the time to respond again when I posed a couple of questions. Thank you.

The thing is I have already spoken about restaurant dining etc once in the past in a kind way because the child just cannot sit. She climbs under the table (which makes me uncomfortable. I don't want a child stomping on my feet and around my crotch!) and runs around and will only sit still with a screen in front of her.

The mother reasons the child is having a good time so should be left.

So it would be futile to start another conversation about dining out with the mother. I really do need to find a way of saying no to the behaviour which the mother also understands.

If the child wants to run about and play under the table fine. Not my style of parenting and there are some uncomfortable moneys but fine. She does get hurt a lot though as she is constantly banging her head on tables etc and other diners look at our table with daggers and some even say something but I can deal with that as it's not my kids and I'm going all I can with my own to raise them responsibly.

But using hands to keep taking food from my plate when I've said not to and rummaging through my handbag are examples of things I won't tolerate while dining out. How to approach this directly without doing the conversation you suggest? This parent is very wishy washy and needs to be told directly as she never sees any wrong in her child and will tie herself in knots to justify why her child is so perfect and angelic and everyone else's kids are to blame. So how to tell the parent directly with full conscientiousness about how it might land and wanting to make that landing as pleasant as it can be and maintain our friendship. I think others on this thread would appreciate more practical tips from a psychologist's perspective too.

Although I do wonder if some of your tips are a bit too concerned with respecting other people's boundaries and parenting style while allowing them and their kids to trample all over our boundaries, which obviously isn't fair!

Thanks so much to everyone for responding,

To the people with a different approach to mine/the majority of us here I am taking time to digest what you say and think of the other perspective (although I won't be changing my parenting style and just as I thought there's no good argument presented for a lack of boundaries and permissive parenting)

To everyone else who is raising their kids to be happy and emotionally healthy and respectful, I wish we were friends! 😆

Do you 'truly want to know if you're being unreasonable' or just want people to praise your amazing parenting? You sound pretty confident that you're right.

Interesting that you said one time one of your friends 'shouted' at one of your kids and you left immediately so they haven't done that again. I'd like to hear the friends side.

I did and do think I'm right but - as any parent who wants to parent as best they can does sometimes - had a little wobble wondering if all of these permissive parents knew something I didn't?

I have been very reassured by this thread

As for the friend, she shouts at lots of peoples kids and tells parents to tell their kids off directly and has fallen out with a number of friends because she is overly harsh with their children and doesn't say boo to a goose with her own. I'd like to hear her perspective on that moment too but won't bring it up as it's water under the bridge and she knows not to treat my child like that again, and doesn't.

One of my son's friends (age 7) is so rude to his parents and they never correct him at all. He gets into trouble at school and his mum blames it on one of his classmates (X made him to do it). We have had playdates where he has screamed right in the face of my younger son (who was 3 at the time and burst into tears) or snatches/won't take turns or share, and she will always make excuses for him rather than telling him off (he's tired, late night, long week, end of term, early start, etc...)He screams at his parents when he doesn't get his way or tells them "we're going! Stop talking! I said we're going! COME ON!" and they just say "ooh, I think we'd better go". He has learned that sulking and crying get him his way at home, but other kids his age aren't interested in giving in so he ends up either crying/sulking on his own or screaming, shouting and lashing out. The kids are now 7 and birthday parties are tending towards smaller groups of friends rather than class parties and this child is increasingly not invited along.

I feel sorry for the kid.

Setting boundaries is, obviously, fine.

Needing to go online to get validation by getting a load of strangers to praise you and slag off your 'friends' might suggest you're not setting the best example for your children in all ways, though...

@userloadsofnumbers lazy single child stereotype alert.

Not slagging off my friends, stating facts and finding ways to keep friendships in tact while some of them allow their children to do anything they want, regardless of mine and my family's feelings.

But thanks for your contribution!

I honestly don't mean to cause offence - I know plenty of beautifully mannered and parented only children. However, this cohort do unfortunately live up to the stereotype - perhaps it's because the parents are wealthy and can easily afford to indulge their every whim, perhaps it's because many missed out on nursery (they are the Covid generation), perhaps it's because parents and children are getting increasingly entitled - I have 3 other older children and it's the first time I've experienced it so bad - there was always the odd one in my eldest year groups but it is now the majority rather than the minority. I am honestly shocked at how entitled and feral the majority of these kids are - the rule rather than the exception as it was 5+ years ago. It's my experience in the area we live in - it may not be the case elsewhere (and I really hope for the future of society it isn't!)

Why would you let a child take the food from your plate? If this happened to me, I’d say “no, that’s not for you” and send them back to their parents. If they keep letting them wander, complain.
I have no bother giving out to other peoples kids when necessary, otherwise I’d just avoid and when relevant, complain to someone. If I fell out with the parents over it, so be it. Being around other kids is just part of being a parent and sometimes it’s a pia but it’s not as big a deal as you’re making out.

My oldest child has trouble sitting still in restaurants. So we don't go to restaurants. No need to put them in adult spaces if I (and they) are going to find it stressful. If you/ your friends know your friends' kids struggle to sit still, why meet in that setting? Go to a park, farm, playground, woods, back garden or whatever where sitting quietly isn't a requirement.