I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Yes, and I don’t care. All businesses are liable for VAT, it really is that simple.

1. Yes I realise but I am against the principle of private education and would prefer that everyone invested their efforts in the state system.

2. Yes I'm aware. Finally a positive to leaving the EU. The majority of European societies do not have such an entrenched class system and inequality of wealth as the UK so I don't believe the difference between private and state schools there is so great.

Yes aware and still for it

Private schools are profit making businesses.

Therefore VAT should be paid.

I find it very hard to sympathise with the wealthy who don't want to pay VAT on a service.

I wish they would just run state schools like private schools, then there would be no need for private schools.

1. Yes, I realised that, same with Private Healthcare. I’m hoping it may bring some of those sharp elbowed parents into the state sector to push things and try and improve things for all.
2. No, I didn’t realise it was illegal to tax Private education across Europe but surely since Brexit it doesn’t matter? Labour have been voted in democratically with this issue high on their agenda so it seems a fair policy.

Why on earth would people just answer in exactly the way you say given you've said you're furious about it? Or that people other than you are ignorant and ill-informed because they disagree with you? You sound very entitled and used to having things your own way, and I think that says it all really.

Yes I know but I object to private schools for the same reason I object to grammar school- its exclusionary.

Yes I know but we are no longer part of the EU

Yes, and I genuinely couldn’t care less whether people send their kids to private school, if you can afford it great, if you can’t then don’t, it’s the same as any financial decision but I don’t see why it was ever vat exempt.

We’re no longer part of the EU so that’s irrelevant (wonder how many people who send their kids to private school voted for Brexit?)

Most people would know about 2. People voted for Brexit because they don’t want to be bound by EU rules.

Number 1 isn’t equally relevant everywhere. Some schools would have no problems filling places even if fees rose 40% and other areas have undersubscribed schools so the competition will switch to buying houses in the right catchment which is why the policy is short sighted imo. The people who will be negatively affected the most are those who won’t be able to afford a home close enough to their preferred school.

ITS NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIX THE SYSTEM.

I'm so tired of hearing this. My sharp elbows are mine!

I genuinely appreciate the way in which this has been answered so far!

Private schools are granted many tax advantages directly related to charitable status, including mandatory 80 per cent business rates relief on premises.

Local authority maintained state schools, by contrast, are required to pay 100 per cent of their business rates bills as are NHS hospitals.

Point 1 - I don't believe VAT will cause people to leave private education en masse.

Point 2 - Yes. But this is called control. I did not vote Leave but this sort of thing is what a lot of people voted for.

There are more deserving cases for zero rated VAT than private education. You have a free state funded alternative if you do not wish to pay VAT on private school fees. I had little alternative to paying the hefty VAT on the mandatory fire safety work to our block of flats.

People with kids at state schools don't care about private education. They don't.

But before I can answer the first question can you explain in detail how the tax payer is saved thousands per year? Can you explain how much a single state school place costs? Can you explain how you have modelled children likely to return to state? What's the net gain of this tax?

For the second, what does that matter? We're not in the EU.

"a free state funded alternative." But it's not free, it is a government funded alternative. I.e. paid for by taxes.

I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight.

Yes you do.

1. Yes
2. No but if I'd thought about it I would have guessed that anyway

Remarkable that you know my intentions.

What's the point of a multi page bun fight, its been done to death and no new arguments will be made. I just want my two questions to be answered.

1. Yes, I realise that but I think there's more value in schools with kids from all backgrounds that even it out. I went to school where there weren't private schools so had kids from all backgrounds in my classroom.

There were kids from well of backgrounds who parents were hugely invested in their education. In other locations they would certainly have been private. Here those invested parents used their talents and resources to fundraise for the school, push for changes, volunteer, arrange things etc etc. In doing the best for their children they raised the level of the whole school including for parents who couldn't afford to contribute to new equipment or worked full time so couldn't volunteer. So yes I realise that private school saves money from the public system but having those kids and families could be more valuable. (I was the poor friend who tagged along a lot)

1. No I wasn't aware of this. Some of the convos on this site about VAT have just been bun fights but I've also learnt a lot about subject and I'm grateful to the posters who put forward thoughtful arguments especially around SEN provision. It wasn't something I'd considered and really made me pause.

Ultimately I still agree with VAT, I don't think private schools are good and would like them limited, but do feel we need to all push to ensure SEN kids are fully supported in the standard system and parent still have choice. That choice just shouldnt be limited to those who can afford it.

@Seenandheard so what? We are a society that has decided to use tax to fund certain things free at the point of delivery. One of those is a free school place for every child up to 18. If you choose not to take that up that is your choice.

I have no children and yet am happy for my taxes to fund that provision.

Yes and don’t give a monkeys.
you aren’t saving us money - your tax is used for all sorts. If a school gets an extra £80k because it has 10 new pupils then the money benefits the whole school. Hurray!
There are plenty of school places all over the country.
We aren’t in the EU so what the EU does really is irrelevant.

People are free to use
private schools, if they can afford it. If they think it worth the money.

But the tax breaks are going away.

I am anti Brexit and went to private school.

When I was young, some private providers (eg crammers) did charge VAT

In much of the country the number of kids in private school makes sod all difference to the numbers in State schools.

State school pupils are allocated funding of under £4000 per year
that is all that the state saves by them going elsewhere.

1. Yes, and I don't begrudge anyone a free school place, even if they could afford to pay for one.
2. Yes, but I did only hear about this on mumsnet about a month ago. I would rather we were still in the EU, but as we are not, then I am ok about the VAT.

I don't know the extent to which (1) is actually true all things considered.

And yes, I knew about (2) and don't really care.