I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Yes and No. but it doesn’t change my opinion, because in some countries private education is much more affordable . In this country it only benefits a privileged elite.

The VAT exemption on private schools is another piece which contributes to a really unfair tax system. People on lower incomes spend a far greater proportion of their income on consumption (day to day spending) vs savings / pension contributions than people on higher incomes do. The majority of this spend is taxed through VAT. The exemption on private school is another area that people on higher incomes can spend without getting taxed on it. It is unfair.

A far bigger impact on the chances of poorer children and unfairness is the fact that wealthier parents can buy access to good and outstanding state schools via buying a house in catchment areas of those schools. I think this vat policy will have a negative effect on public finances via driving parents that are just about managing into the state sector. The richest won't be affected. But that is Labour all over - levelling down and making peoples lives worse (and tories aren't much better recently).

1. Yes I know this.
2. Yes I was telling my DH this yesterday and he didn't know. Both of us work in private schools so it has certainly been a subject we have discussed. Personally I would make private schools illegal not just tax them. The difference between the school I work in and the state schools I can afford to send my kids to is shocking and is something I live with on a daily basis. It's the thing that entrenches inequality in society more than anything else I can think of.

So these private school parents who can't afford the increase in fees will nevertheless have the money to cover the premium charged for houses inside good state school catchment areas? How does that work?

They might have to add VAT on universities fees too too if they decide to add VAT on private schools too. Not sure how many will feel happy about that then.

They might also have to add VAT to rainbows. Who knows?

Ah yes, the good old stalker accusation. The last bastion of defence of those who can't keep track of their own hypocrisy.

So, given your response above it must be safe to assume that if labour had given an exemption to those with children already in private school you'd be completely OK with the policy? Afterall, the parents would then have made the decision having had access to information about it.

Then again you do say you object to this in principle, but not the two child cap, so maybe it is just plain old hypocrisy and imalrightjackitis. Anyway, the decision's made, that's democracy for you. Win some, lose some.

Because school fees for two or more dc are a shed load when it comes to bumping up house prices

Whenever this subject is raised (ie all the bloody time), those against VAT seem to make out that all kids currently at private schools will have to switch to stare schools. Of course they won't. Loads of families already in the private system can and will just pay the extra. It's only those on the fringes of the affordability line that won't be able to pay. So yes, a few more pupils will move to the state system but falling birth rates mean there are enough spaces for them. As a state school parent, I couldn't care less because I already have my places at the schools of my choice.

Private school parents…. What we must remember is what we pay in VAT we save on holidays out of term time … and to that end cheers 🥂

My child is one of four in her class of 15 in independent, and is paid for fully by the EHCP. The LA placed her in independent as it's cheaper than a state specialist setting would be.

I could link you to two local independents which are mainstream, but have half the kids on EHCPs for that reason. It can act as a halfway between the two. And there are tens of thousands too few spaces in specialist provision right now - so, so many kids are completely out of school.

I already said quite clearly that I feel exemptions should be given to families who get Disability Living Allowance - the children's benefit - at medium rate or above. I didn't say I disagreed with VAT on private school fees. You just read what you expected to, and want to. Which says more about you than it does this subject.

I think it's dim to 1) hold strong views from a position of utter ignorance, and 2) fail to read a post before you jeer at the person making it.

Wrong thread

There are the kind of things that only a private school education will teach you.
The rest of us can't possibly be expected to understand.

In the UK we hate wealth and success unless ots multi million pound footballers.

The policy is popular because the lefties want to punish the successful for being able to fund something for their family. Its absolutely nothing to do with the bit of money the tax will raise. Its everything to do with looking like they are doing something to take the middle class down a peg. It's popular to dislike the middle class.

1. we’ll save even more when we get VAT as well (despite all the protests I’m not convinced all the private school parents are suddenly going to go state)
2. i didn’t know that. Finally a positive of brexit.

Yes and I don't care. With some experience of how private school funding works in a specific eu country it is not structured in a way that perpetuates privilege for the rich like in the UK so the second point would be moot if comparing. Has other issues though.

Your privilege shows.

What about unicorns?

Since the OP has found an alleged Brexit benefit, can we now hope to find more grazing the sunny uplands?

Fair enough, I hadn't considered the Jacob Rees-Mogg's of this world.

In terms of the VAT, if it helps, the government isn’t going to get much from this anyway. Those that are in the top bracket of rich have paid all of their fees until their children graduate, so (again) they avoided paying tax as usual. I understand where you are coming from, as my son attends private school. I wouldn’t send him to one of my state schools because I live in an overcrowded borough in London. Our jobs are based here. Our school is, rightfully, absorbing most of it and not fully passing it on to parents. I am happy to pay the taxes provided, if services were good, but at the moment, it’s so terrible right now, it’s annoying (coming from 14 years of a Tory government). They cut everything. I can’t ride a bicycle because four mothers I know have been attacked and the police do nothing. I find it impossible to get an appointment with a GP, etc. but, with the new government, I believe it will take a while, but hopefully, get better. Finally, it is what it is. We live in a class system in this country. Places like Finland, completely banned private schools, but I doubt the elite here would allow that. And it will take at least 10 years for the education system to improve and my son will be out of school. Ten years ago, I would have been happy to send him to state education. The average class size then was 24. It’s now 36 and they cut SEN funding. After the VAT announcement, a third of parents from the private schools in our area, have left and are moving abroad. So in terms of that, most refused to switch to state and just left entirely. Like a lot of the middle classes and senior management in this country. Frankly, we are now considering it. Not because of VAT, but everything is in such a hole. The problem is there are also middle classes sending their children to private schools and all of the taxes and cost of living is affecting us a bit too. It is what it is. The rich avoid tax, the poorest can only pay what they can and the middle and working classes get stuck with the bill. I wish the entire state education system was exactly like what private offers, but it doesn’t. I have absolutely no control over that. I have one child as an older mother and I work two jobs to send him to his school, but it’s18 kids per class and the amount of extra education and strict anti bullying was a no brainer for us. If we were pushed out financially, we would probably leave the UK, but I don’t think that’s on the horizon yet. I have a lot of faith in Rachel Reeves. She is very seasoned in finance and always has a pragmatic approach to things.

Dh and I both privately educated at quite posh boarding schools. We are comfortably middle class, and our dc go to state school.

I’d never really considered either of these points, so I guess you could say the answer is no.

That said, what I do believe though is that if you can’t stretch an extra 20% to keep your child in the education you’ve chosen to invest in for them, then you’ve been living beyond your means and those choices are now coming to bite. My mum, a single parent, worked 3 jobs - a full time one plus 2 part time jobs to keep me in private school. Am I grateful for the sacrifice? Yes. Do I think it was wise? No. Would I do it for my own kids? No. Not at the risk of teetering on the edge of financial instability, one change of circumstances away from having to pull dc out of school.

There’s too many people trying to seem posher than they are to cover up their own insecurities and hang ups about social positioning.

🤣🤣🤣 this did make me giggle

This has been done to death. Everything has been answered countless times.

The majority of people disagree with you and support the plans. Deal with it.

I have deep rooted anger about this as well

And I am not even going go be affected by the tax!

It just seems to be one of those frustrating injustices - it’s as if the Labour Party is projecting the uk’s poor investment in government schools as the fault of private school parents who now have to pay for their sins!!

And having a Sen child myself, I am very angry on behalf of those parents who moved their child private saving tax payers money.

And don’t get my started about the time I found out stammers daughter is in a private school now…it was clearly just an election winning tactic.

If government schools are underfunded - we should all pay towards improving the education of our children.

How are private schools a luxury but a university education is not?

Loads of people would struggle with a 20% tax on something else. It doesn’t mean they are living beyond their means. It’s just that people feel fine about private dc taking the hit for no benefit other than an emotional reaction