I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Private school are businesses. They distort the market. They should pay VAT. I live in a rich city, without many private schools, no grammar and good state options.
my kids go to the schools I went to. It is the same then as it is now, clever kids, stupid kids, rich kids, poor kids all in the same schools.

those schools are better as they have everyone in, the ‘top’ or most invested slice of society hasn’t been removed.

Question one; I don’t care.
Question two; irrelevant due to brexit.

Some council estate kids from state schools go to Oxbridge and dedicate their career to public service.

1. Yes
2. Yes

Furthermore, I think that your entire post and attitude towards others only furthers my belief in banning private school education completely.

I’m not answering your questions but want to provide solidarity. I’m also angry. But I just keep trying to tell myself that 1. It’s out of our control now so just accept it and get on with it and 2. Ignore all these smug people who are so happy about this turn of events. They are so gloating because of their own issues with the world, it’s best to just smile and move on. They can take away our private schools, they can take away our grammar schools but they can’t take away our innate abilities or desire to ensure our children are pushed and thrive. And ultimately most of us can probably move to other countries if we really need to.

And look at the mess they have made of the country.

1. Not every child will be withdrawn from private schools. It will just be those whose parents were scrimping and saving etc to put them there in the first place. Most parents will reduce spend elsewhere or be in the position where they don't need to. They can always cut down on avocado toast and lattes if needed....

1. Finally a Brexit benefit. Never thought I'd see the day.

I don't think they are profit-making businesses. They're not-for-profit. The money goes into the education.

OP you are fundamentally misunderstanding. Nobody really cares what mechanism is used to do this (eg VAT on fees), the point is to make it a bit more punitive to those that choose private education, which is ultimately something which only harms our society.

It creates a divide based on wealth and privilege that most of us DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. We want all children to get equal opportunity to meet their potential. Lets be really honest - anyone paying for private education wants their child to have advantage over others, a leg up, more chance of securing the top grades, more attention, than other children. It actively hinders social mobility as the wealthy buy advantage making their children just that bit more likely to get the more highly paid jobs as an adult.

I know a load of people will say oh no im only privately educating because my child has SEN! Labour have been clear there will be exemptions for SEN. And i think we all know the reality is most private schools are selective and manage out SEN kids as early as possible, the majority of privately educated children arent kids with SEN just trying to get even modest gcse grades.

So yes.... I knew both of those things, and no, i don't care, because I think a more equal society is more valuable by far than what private school parents are 'saving' the government.

The interesting thing is I have never met parents at a state school who have the desire for their children to be pushed and thrive, and none of those children have any innate ability. Amazing.

No one is saying or promising this or believing this.

This is just your hyperbole.

It will take more than your VAT payments. But it's a start.

Sorry? Oxbridge graduates who work in public service rather than choosing high paying careers are responsible for society’s problems. Wow.

Yes, except the government is not made of fools and they have calculated there will still be a net increase in the coffers of over £1bn;
Yes I have frequently pointed this out on these threads.

My kids went to private school and if they were still there I would not be able to afford the increase.

A token few make it. 1/10th of the number that should if you dig into the impact of private school privelege on admissions.

Well as private schools are there for the good of all children, then surely the easy thing for them to do is absorb the VAT?

1. whatever
2. yawn

Only those who lived in council houses and went to state schools.

If it's illegal in the EU how did Greece do it? The EU asked them to cut the rate, not to remove it entirely. "Under the EU VAT Directive, education service fees for tuition also provided by state schooling should not be charged with the standard VAT rate." The EU had no problem with them charging VAT, just that the VAT was set at the standard rate.

EU tells Greece to cut VAT on private schools - Avalara

It’s not a tax on education. It’s a tax on businesses that offer an alternative education for the most privileged.

@Pogpog21 nobody's "taking away" your private schools. Get a grip. They'll still be there. Their tax status is changing. There are tax changes on all sorts of things every year.

However, I will accept that a lot of private school parents are wealthy enough to easily contemplate moving to a different country. Which somewhat makes me wonder why they're so adamant that they cannot afford to pay a penny more for private school.

It is against the rules of these threads to post facts. Please desist.

Not true…a few dozen top private schools earn millions in profits from their satellite schools abroad.
https://www.pepf.co.uk/publications/report-british-private-schools-and-their-overseas-satellite-campuses/

So what? They still deserve the same quality of education even though they live on a council estate. Their education is still critically important for the country whether or not they achieve high academic outcomes.

1. Yes
2. Yes

I posted this on a previous thread, but if you genuinely want to know why I support the policy - this is a brief summary.

My view is formed within the wider situation of tax and particularly VAT in the uk. The government has essentially three mechanisms for raising money:
Taxing people and businesses
Growing the economy (and therefore gaining a greater tax take)
Borrowing
Within the tax mix we have income taxes and VAT. VAT is a sales tax and is charged on the vast majority of goods and services. It is not a ‘luxury tax’ and never has been. For the interested there is a list of exemptions and reduced rates here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services
Some would argue that all VAT should be scrapped and we should rely solely on income and wealth taxes. This is partly because it can be seen as ‘paying twice’ & partly because lower income individuals pay a greater proportion of their incomes on VAT. Many of life’s essentials (adult clothes, furnishing, white goods, household repairs etc.) incur VAT. Removing all VAT would however be wildly politically unpopular because of the rises in other taxes that would be necessary to compensate for it.
Given that VAT is here to stay, people must decide whether private school fees should remain exempt (in the context of the other goods and services that are not). If added some families, who are at the margins of affordability, will have to make the decision to move their children to state schools. Inarguably this may be difficult for some of those families. However, it needs to be born in mind that for the vast, vast majority of families in the uk private school is not an option. Most of us regardless of the individual needs of our children (including send needs) and the quality of the local schools available have to make the best of state education. There is no option of private for the majority of us. This policy will make private unaffordable for a fraction more. However, most existing users will continue and although no one can be sure, it is likely that the policy will produce a net gain in tax take. People are dismissive of the likely amount of tax gained, but I would welcome it. Even a fractional additional teaching appointment at my child’s comprehensive school would be helpful. Additional pupils can also be accommodated. I do not expect them to magically raise standards and solve problems (in fact find this idea a bit strange/almost insulting), but neither would they cause overcrowding or be detrimental. In recent years, the school has accepted significant numbers from a local (state) school closing and newly arrived refugees. The new arrivals were managed and welcomed, as would children moving from a private school. There are some local pockets in the uk where additional local measures may need to be put in place (temporary classrooms, bulge years etc.), but nationally there are surplus places as has been stated previously.
On balance, I support the policy because the negative impact on some families needs to be seen in the wider context of the impact of VAT on all income levels and the likely small (but still helpful) increase in tax take. Nobody should be gleeful about a child having to move school for whatever the reason, be it private school becoming unaffordable, a house move or other changes of circumstances. Neither should we deny it can be stressful to move schools for whatever reason. However, it can and has to be managed by many, many children every year.
VAT makes things less affordable and therefore makes things more difficult for some families. That is the impact of a sales taxes. VAT impacts a struggling single parent who needs to replace a broken washing machine and now potentially a family with a middle income who is just about managing to pay private school fees. I don’t see how it is fair to maintain an exemption for private school fees (a service bought overwhelming, although not exclusively, by those with higher incomes and for which the alternative of state schools is available) whilst VAT is maintained on many essentials that must be purchased by all (including those on low incomes). This does not mean that I am not empathetic to the impact this will have on some families, simply that all tax has some negative impacts and I do not think it is equitable to maintain this exemption for this particular service.

I completely agree.