I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Lol, why change the habit of a lifetime? Far more people are impacted by the two child benefit cap but you're opposed to removing that.

To quote you from another thread "People need to take responsibility for their choices. We discounted the idea of a third based on cost".

Well, we've discounted the idea of private education being VAT exempt so you'll just need to take responsibility for your own decisions and get on with it.

Thank goodness someone finally started a thread on this.

Public school kids who are my friends, hated the institutions and have been very anti sending their own kids there.
Public school kids I have worked with have mostly been unpleasant.
Eton school boys were patronising & grim in the 90s when I was growing up in Windsor and I have no idea why we didn't beat some of them up - could have changed the course of history.

Do you realise how much most people dislike public school confidence?

1. I don't think you understand how little the government actually spends on a state school space. Even if a third of private school kids leave for the state sector (and they won't), the VAT on the fees of the remaining two-thirds will cover the cost.
2. we aren't in the EU

You do realise that the number of kids with SEN in private schools are a token few? SEN kids are far more likely than nonSEN kids be in a state school than a private school. Private schools are known for tokenising SEN kids because they don’t want to lose ground on the league tables for attainment.

You must think we are really dim to buy into the poster child for a private school having SEN.

1. We're heading into a demographic downtown, there will be plenty of school places for anyone who needs one, and many who privately educate won't need to remove their child from private school because of the VAT increase anyway
2. I had no idea tbh. But we tax luxury products and services in the UK, and private education is a luxury. I don't see why it shouldn't be taxed!

Private schools should be banned to encourage the richest to invest in the state school system like other EU countries.

1. isn’t true if you understood how the funding works.

i love when private school parents think they are helping the state system - quite the opposite! I imagine this is where they all learn to evade taxes in later life too

Ignorant really??

What do you propose to do about all the thousands of SEN kids whose parents won’t ever be able to afford private education?

Do you care about any of them?

I do as my kid has SEN and I’d rather my taxes and therefore funding was channelled into providing better SEN provision universally in the State sector.

What we have now is a travesty with a tiny percentage of SEN kids getting excellent support just because their parents perhaps have more money, fewer kids, receive support from family members etc…

Why shouldn’t all SEN kids get to play on that nice lush green level playing field?

As the recipient of a rather good private education (army brat at boarding school, i did ride horses but only because my dad was in the Household Cavalry) and having experienced some benefits of that later on i have to say that i do appreciate that my parents went without some things for us to be able to have a stable education.

If enough state boarding schools had been available, we would have gone to them, though. And i would have been happy with that too.

I fervently believe that we must give all children the best education we can. But that should be state funded. That goes for children with SEN as much as any others.

Ah, you don’t believe in social justice or eradicating classism then, if you did you would understand that the privileged should use their privilege to help the less privileged?

1. yes obviously - but given that funding is per pupil and not per school, having more pupils means that schools have more funding. I also think that's a fairly disingenuous argument - people aren't privately educating their children from the goodness of their hearts to keep spots in the state schools for the less well off, they're doing it to advantage their children. I'm not opposed to private education in principle - I was privately educated myself and depending on finances when mine get to secondary age we might consider it - but it's a luxury good and we pay tax on luxury goods. I don't expect a government subsidy on my summer holiday because it could have educational value.

2. yes vaguely, though not the nuances

Bit stalkerish of you to check other threads, but in any case, how can I take responsibility for a choice to privately educate my children which I took well over a decade ago when this VAT policy had never even been dreamt up? Anyway, luckily my eldest has just left school and I have one remaining in sixth form with 2 scholarships (whose fees have been paid in advance). So I can get on with paying any small amount that might be due, sure, but I object to the principle of this theft - which is taking place because "they can". Not for any robust reason.

Children impacted by the 2 child cap were born well after the govt announced the policy. So they were born with their parents having access to information about it. Unlike this private school tax.

Isn’t the charitable status going to be removed and changed to non profit?

Yes, the ruling class at private school must surely appreciate the good of a well educated workforce for them manage? Less reliance on foreign workers if we educate little Sam and Sally from the council estate.

Interesting to ask me whether I care about other people's SEN kids.

Nobody cares about mine. So no, I won't care about theirs.

Terrible when politics is so divisive isn't it?

Is that politics or just selfishness? Do you generally suffer from lack of empathy?

1: I doubt very much that a lot of kids will be leaving private schools over this. I'll believe it when I see it, frankly. Parents are up in arms about it now, but it will really be only the kids whose parents were genuinely struggling to keep their kids there, and I am not convinced that's the majority.
2: It's a tax on a product you purchase. We have to pay tax on most things we buy. It's not reasonable to exempt private education simply because it's education. It would be different if there was no state option and I do think for those who are having to attend private schools through lack of SEND provision shouldn't have to pay, but that isn't the majority of private school attendees.

Not generally, no, but it's something that I am now going to take up.

Your point 2 is incorrect and disingenuous. It might look like you’re happy to not be entirely truthful to try and prove a point…

Is the VAT on chocolate digestives also theft?

I'm not sure about that. You probably know more than I do.

I can understand why Labour has done this and why people agree with their actions. I'm a shades-of-grey kind of person, though, and I can see why it is upsetting and worrying many people. The very wealthy won't mind at all; and there are a lot of them. But there are also a lot of parents who have scrimped and saved to put their children through private education; there are those on scholarships too - and this is going to hit them very hard.

If I could change one thing about what looks to be inevitable, it would be to implement it so that those children already in private education are less affected - a 'scaling up', if you will. And then levy the full 20% on those just coming in.

Unfortunately they aren't doing that, and I think that is going to be very disruptive to a whole lot of young people - something that Mumsnet as a whole are typically very concerned about. But not here, I suspect, because we're also dealing with envy, and when that is in play, anyone who is perceived as having 'more than' is fair game.

Point 2 is not true.

Yes and Yes, it is one of the main reasons I voted Labour.

Yes and Yes

I believe it is an excellent idea and look forward to it funding additional teachers in state schools.

What shocks me about private education is how the cost has outpaced inflation by a factor of 2 or 3 for the last 20 years..... demonstrating that people are ready to pay much more for it. This I feel is unnecessary.

If I pay a private waste disposal company to empty my wheelie bin they'll charge me VAT. It's a fucking outrage! Don't they know that I'm saving the local council money!?