I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

Exactly.
My tax money funds the NHS, I barely use it but am happy to pay for it. My work provides private healthcare.
My tax money is paying for state pensions- something that I may never be able to claim in my lifetime. Happy to pay it.
My tax money pays towards a benefits system that I have never used, nor am I likely to. I’m happy to pay for that safety net to be there for others.

I could go in… if you decide to use alternatives to the benefits we have as a modern, western society then that’s your choice but you still contribute to that society.

I'm not sure private education in most of the EU is like it is in the UK. Certainly in Ireland and France fees tend to be a fraction of what you pay in the UK and much of their running costs are actually covered by the state. Do private schools in the UK really get no funding from the state at all? Every single penny of costs is covered by the fees?

Private schools which exist only to give a small sect of society a huge leg up can handle being taxed.

Bored of hearing about all the people who apparently can only afford their fees with a fiver to spare and couldn’t possibly pay VAT on top. Not true for the majority, fees go up every year anyway.

We aren’t in the EU, lots of EU laws don’t apply here. Whats your point?

I’m fairly certain that quite a lot of the people bleating on about ‘ it’s illegal in the EU’ voted for Brexit…

Yes I realise those things. It doesn't really factor into my position on the issue. I firmly believe that education should not be bought and all children should have access to the same opportunities regardless of finances.

Whilst I realise we're not in the position in the UK to abolish private schools, I don't think they should be exempt from vat. They're businesses and should be treated as such. The charitable aims of private schools are spurious at best, they mostly benefit the privileged and wealthy and continue deeply ingrained social inequalities.

Ours is not profit making as it has charitable status.

Answer to both is no, but I don't feel they're relevant. A wealthy person with health issues might save the NHS money by going private, but if enough wealthy people withdrew funding from public health then the less-wealthy majority would suffer

I do get it. It pisses me off when the roofing quote is £7k but the bill
is 20% more with VAT but that’s how VAT works.
So if I can’t afford the whole amount, I wait, or save, or ‘cut my cloth’ as the Tories love to say accordingly.

1. Yes I realise this. No, I don't care.

1. No, I didn't know this. No, I don't care.

Yeah, that’s another F-ing thing that needs to be looked at. still, one thing at a time. That’s a very loose definition of ‘charity’ to say the least.
Just another tax dodge to avoid paying businesses rates.

Or when you need an emergency plumber and 20% of the bill is tax. Yeah. It sucks. But you know 🤷‍♀️

Less than 7% of pupils in England are at independent schools, I think we'll cope.

I would add a third question:

3. Accepting that state schools need more money, do you realise that there are other sources to raise this from? Why is it OK to tax the only people who are 100% guaranteed not to benefit from the tax (ie those with kids at private school). For example, why would you not support an "emergency school tax" on foreign holidays which could potentially raise even more money.

Anyway - OP - the answer to all 3 questions is the same - if it does not impact people personally, then they have no shits to give. And Labour know that it impacts 7% of those with school age kids and that most people therefore won't give a shit. That's why they won't put an emergency tax on foreign holidays, for example. Because it would impact millions more and that would have meant fewer votes.

But likewise, when a policy comes in that doesn't impact me, I won't have any shits to give, regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Why should I give a shit about anyone in society? They are happy for morally wrong stuff to happen to me, so I'll be happy for morally wrong stuff to happen to them.

I put my SEN kid through private school. No family holiday for the past 5 years. I think this policy is an utter disgrace and hope that private schools reclaim millions and millions of pounds of VAT on capex and that no money is raised. Starmer and Reeves are thieves - this particular tax is 100% guaranteed not to benefit those who pay it.

1. Yes but taxing (VAT) you on your purchase of a luxury product means more money for state education. So win, win.
2. We aren't in the EU so that doesn't really matter. However, technically that is not correct. Several EU directives provided some guidance on the VAT exemption of educational services, but the specific interpretation and implementation differed between countries. Some member states fully or partially exempted private school tuition from VAT, while others applied standard VAT rates.

That is exactly the point - less than 7% are going to be hit and therefore there aren't enough people to give a shit about something that's against EU law and morally disgraceful (in that those paying it are guaranteed not to benefit).

Well, next time 7% of people get fucked by something disgraceful, I certainly won't be giving a shit.

My answer to both questions is “don’t care” either move your kids to state school or pay the 20%, I still don’t care. Suck it up, it is long overdue.

Seems like the thin edge of a wedge, once it's normalised to have VAT on educational fees, which is about the worst thing they could do, how about VAT on children's clothes (after all that only affects people with children), sanitary wear (only affects women). Anything they like really, Will they charge VAT on all fees paid to schools, ie, VAT on state school trips? VAT on university fees, they are also businesses?

1. According to the gov.uk site, over 70% of state secondary schools are not at capacity. A teacher is paid and a classroom is heated whether there are 23 or 30 children in it.
2. It is a disingenuous comparison.

OP, unlike the majority in these pages, I consider education, whether publicly or privately provided, to be a public good - it seems the EU think the same. Would those so vociferously advocating for VAT on school fees think that private tutoring should also attract VAT? Not everyone can afford a tutor. What about ballet or music lessons? If someone is saving the state money by providing for themselves something that would otherwise come at the taxpayers’ expense, I don’t see that they should also have to pay tax on top as well. Taxing school fees will actually simply make independent schools even more exclusive - the very wealthy will continue to pay; those who go without holidays and drive an old banger will have to take their children out of school. There seems to be absolutely no thought given to the effect this might have on the children concerned - no child choose their school.

Don't expect anyone to care about things that impact you then.

Of course it isn't long overdue - the rest of Europe and the world don't tax education like this.

Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Well, at the risk of being the 94th person to point this out: the UK isn't in the EU and so can tax whatever it likes.

That's correct, but you seem to have missed the point.

The point is that since it's illegal in the EU, it's probably a pretty bad thing to do.

Yes love, I truly understand.
I understand that I am sick of the " saving the tax payers money " altruism clap trap.
Off you trot and do a sponsored walk and donate it to the NHS, that will save the tax payers some money.

Private schools are a business. They are not educational establishments because they do not offer ieducatiin to all. They charge money to offer privilege to a select few. They are a business providing a premier service, and should be liable to vat like any other business.

Of course every child in a State school costs x amount in tax payer money. I imagine virtually everyone understands the basic principles of taxation? 🤷🏻‍♀️

Imagine if all the money that is currently wasted on private education; school fees, facilities management, staff costs etc. was channelled back into the State sector, how much extra money and teaching staff, that would provide?

Due to Bloody Brexit, EU laws are irrelevant and don’t add anything to your silly argument other than it was the stupid feckin’ Tories who took the country down that shitty path.

So hoisted by your own petard, I think. 😂

1. yes
2. I'm not sure of the relevance?

I went to private school and I'm certainly not a subscriber to many of the ill-informed arguments you reference in your OP.

I think there is a lack of knowledge on both sides.

As a believer in "public goods", in an economic sense, and at a time when the public finances are stretched, I genuinely can't see any reason why private school fees should not be subject to VAT.