I genuinely want pro-VAT people to answer these two questions

[Seenandheard]

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

(2) Do ypu realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes or no to both points, please.

I do not want reams of uninformed angry opinions. I don't want this to turn into a multi page thread/bun fight. I just want to understand whether people realise these two points, really, truly understand them. Because it seems to me that there is a mentality of "they're getting a tax break" (WRONG) or "they're taking something away from my child" (WRONG) or "they can afford it so they can spread their wealth a bit" (I'm not going into the fact that my family spend more on taxes than Nordic countries, who have a far, far higher standard of living. We give so much, get almost nothing in return- but apparently we need to give more. More. More.)

I think my deep rooted anger here is to do with people's attitudes and uninformed opinions more than the policy itself. I need to know if people are aware of the facts.

@MaggieFS "Private schools get NO funding from the government at all and nearly all provide significant bursary fully funded places and scholarships to children who couldn’t otherwise afford such a place"

I agree that private schools get no government funding (why would they?) but there are very few fully funded bursary places. Most bursaries are only for a small %age of the fees. Once again- no reason why they should. But accuracy is important.

Why is it regressive for adults to be responsible for paying for something which is largely to their advantage (whether or not it benefits other people or society more widely)? A large number of courses could actually be completed far more quickly; universities are milking students for fees over a longer period, which also feeds the accommodation and nightlife cultures. Students are being ripped off left, right, and centre, and so are taxpayers as the majority of students never repay their "debt" and we're left short. We can either go back to a fully funded model where far fewer people go to university, or charge large numbers...

@MaggieFS most schools have between 10 and 30% of pupils on bursaries offering a level of support up to full fees. The majority of schools also offer support to communities either on free holiday schemes for local children/ use of facilities to local clubs and state schools. I disagree that it’s not altruistic - in fact many schools started on a a wholly altruistic basis centuries ago and have become few paying to survive. The misconception that they were started as businesses is far from the truth

Bases work for some, but they'd never work for all. And the thing is, for lots of autistic kids, they have peers. Other autistic kids. We need to start seeing it as more than a defect and start to think of it as part cultural difference - we need to think more creatively for this cohort, IMO. I don't want my kids to be broken members of a normal collective. I want them to be in a place designed to meet their needs. We talk about kids like mine "coping well" as being aspirational. As having "somewhere to go when they struggle in lessons." If we flipped that narrative and spoke about all kids that way, and said, "It's great, my son is coping really well with school and he has somewhere to go when he struggles in lessons" about the bog standard average child, more would be done.

There is a LOT wrong with the private/state divide in this country, and the way it scaffolds the class system. But a lot of kids, in the right gentle small scale independent, start living normal lives and enjoying school. We need to replicate that into a special school model for that cohort, costing Element 1 and 2 funding for all (so, 10-11k each at primary) which isn't much less than small private primaries, actually. And they don't need the bells and whistles. It's doable and would be so, so much better for so many. It's not inclusion, for kids to be just about not drowning. It's that that means mental health diagnoses are so hugely prevalent amongst this cohort.

The bursaries handed out by our local private schools are marketing ploys, aimed at parents who could comfortably afford the fees without any help if it wasn't available. It just makes them feel that they're getting something for nothing. Nearly everyone seems to get offered a bursary of £1k or similar, even parents on pretty hefty incomes. Nobody gets full funding or anything like it, so it doesn't actually help disadvantaged children in the slightest.

Australian private schools are government funded. The money follows the kids. They have 36% privately educated kids as a result. It's genuinely a choice for all but the very badly off, over there. And state schools are pretty good IMO as well.

So, so much of all this is down to proper state funding - no matter how it's done.

@Jumpingthruhoops "It absolutely reeks of jealousy, despite how much someone might try and convince us otherwise. And that is such an ugly trait"

I can't TELL you how tedious the jealousy talk is. Do you want a serious discussion or don't you?

(1) Do you realise that a private school child saves the tax payer/government thousands of pounds per year by not taking up a space in state school? Not to mention the space in the classroom/competition for places? (Do you care about this point or gloss over it in your minds?!)

Yes, I realise that a child at private school isn't taking a place at a state school. No, I don't care, at all. I don't think that fact entitles the parents not to pay VAT.

(2) Do you realise that taxing education is illegal in the EU?

Yes I do, but as we're not a member of the EU, I don't consider that relevant. There are very, very few benefits to us leaving the EU, but I personally consider that being able to add VAT to private school fees is one of them.

Yes, yes, I agree. Unfortunately I use the crap-app and couldn't reply to a reply. The first paragraph wasn't my own. I've reported the post and asked mn to embolden it. It's all getting a bit muddled.

I work for the independent schools body-

I’ve definitely had a giggle at some of the assumptions made about private schools. My children are in state schools, so I’ve no skin in the game, but some of the made up facts and figures from people who have no idea , is rather laughable and embarrassing.

Private schools with charitable status do exactly that- they have to provide a certain amount of charity work to gain their status. You don’t necessarily see what they do as it doesn’t impact you directly , just like for example you don’t see what Oxfam do day to day but it’s their and they reach their status.

Someone above has said they hand out bursaries and scholarships to either those who could already afford to pay, or someone else said to very few. Again totally incorrect - where is your information from as I sit looking at it every day. It depends on the school and different private schools offer varying bursaries and they make up a substantial number of the cohort. Also FYI for those who can’t afford to put your child in a private school- you can apply for one of those places for your child, if your principles allow you.

The VAT proposal- it will impact around 80% of parents who it will make a measurable hit to their day to day finances. (No one is saying they are poor and not well off but it is a fact that it impacts them as they don’t have infinite wealth) . It is a large proportion who have said it will impact them and they will make decisions on whether they remain, move to state school, move abroad to VAT exempt countries or home school. These are not threats, they are consequences off an increase and it only involves them. So I’m not sure where people on here are getting information from on this- as we’ve done a recent studies to understand the implications. So please don’t make up things like the Sun newspaper does.

I also see that this thread is 95% made up of state school parents, like myself. All I concentrate on is my children and their schools. I wouldn’t pull other people down for their decision to put their child in to private education. I am incredibly lucky we live in a nice place with great state schools. Not everyone is so maybe we’re the privileged ones rather than the ones who have to pay. Surveys we have done show they many parents need the resources from that private schools offer like extra curricular activities, wrap around, boarding to work the jobs they do. I’m unsure why people are judging them on this. I’m lucky I don’t need this as I can work from home and pick my children up from school in school hours.

Yeah, I agree that the jealousy thing is getting pretty tedious.

Aus gets the state burden logic

In fact no other country applies this tax, likely for good reason

But some do tax rebates to facilitate better funding across both sectors

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves You are describing scholarships - which you are absolutely correct are marketing to attract top talent in a particular field. However - often less shouted about , it wouldn’t be fair to the children , are the full and 75% plus bursaries.

1. It also immensely privileges the child and the family.
2. It's not a tax it's VAT.

"most schools have between 10 and 30% of pupils on bursaries offering a level of support up to full fees. The majority of schools also offer support to communities either on free holiday schemes for local children/ use of facilities to local clubs and state schools. I disagree that it’s not altruistic"

"Partnerships between state and private schools in England are providing little of the public benefit they purport to offer, new research has suggested.
A report published today by think tank Private Education Policy Forum (PEPF) analyses FOI request responses from 277 English state schools (out of 400 randomly selected schools). Not a single state school in a private school partnership could provide documentation evaluating the partnership’s impact on any measure, and only three reported some financial benefit from their arrangement.
The research also showed superficial ‘pupil events’ such as attending a private school-produced Wizard of Oz performance, joint carol singing or football matches comprise the majority of partnership activity."

https://www.pepf.co.uk/publications/report-benefiting-the-public-a-study-of-private-state-school-partnerships/

Only 1 percent of private school pupils receive full means-tested support and pay no tuition fees.
Only 7 percent of private school pupils receive a means-tested bursary or scholarship.
33.8% of private school pupils receive some fee assistance from their school (in most cases) or elsewhere. These aren’t limited to those who may otherwise be unable to pay, and includes scholarships and discounts, for example for pupils displaying excellence in certain subjects, for children of staff, or for pupils with siblings already at the school.
The proportion spent on bursaries is only 4 percent of turnover.
https://www.pepf.co.uk/fact-finder/facts-and-figures/#link3

I dont think the schools are quite as alturistic as you might believe.

As for ISC surveys - I understand the Baines Cutler one has been rather debunked in recent months.

I am told that reducing spend per pupil has no impact on the student experience.

The graduate tax (branded as student loans) is regressive because if you are wealthy or well paid you end up paying less than if you are poorer.

Do you think it's fair for some children to get a better education because their parents are rich?

Life's not fair, is it? We all have different starting points, different strengths and weaknesses, different advantages and disadvantages. Rich parents will continue to pay for their children's advantage - after school activities, clubs, tutoring etc as well as hustle for the property in clear view of a good school's catchment.

Oh, I agree. On all counts.

I think she means unlawful and not illegal, too.

Not true it varies massively depending on school. For example, 90 boys paid NO fee tuition at all for Eton in the year 2022/3. There are various others too. Obviously thought with VAT being added and schools more conscious of costs I assume the amount of bursary places at the average private school will reduce.

VAT is a tax - in fact it's an acronym for Value Added Tax..?

For those of us with children in state schools-aren’t we in fact the privileged ones? We don’t pay for our children’s schools, we’re able to spend our money elsewhere. And our children get a free education. If we want we pay for tutors, extra curriculum activities and no one comments on it. I can buy a 4x4 electric and people praise us for our contribution to the environment. Maybe it’s actually us who we the privileged ones. We can hide our advantages we try and make for our children, those in private schools get bashed for it as it’s open. When I’m taking my child to their piano lesson or French lesson it’s applauded as I’m doing a great job investing in my child. It’s screams of hypocrisy this thread.

Also there’s threads and posts all over about parents moving to better catchment areas to find a better state school, or getting private tutors so their child passes the 11 plus and can go to grammar schools. Do we judge and attack those parents also?

Some people also want to work harder than others to afford those opportunities. Whilst others work as hard as they can but still can’t afford it anyway.

Exactly. Life isn’t fair! And it’s certainly not fair for those children of parents who committed to private education before the 20% increase and now have to be pulled out because it’s no longer affordable.

@ApplesOrangesBananas "Not true it varies massively depending on school"

That doesn't make my statement untrue!

You know what the T in VAT stands for...?