To not get DC a snack

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Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

I think they are getting bored with the audiobooks rather than sleepy so are getting hungry/thirsty/wee signals. I think it's important to visually see words at that age to encourage reading. They will be reading a book to you before their bedtime soon enough!

They are playing you! Do not fall for it. Kids will try anything to stay up. I most definitely would not be tolerating food at that time of night. Realistically even if they were genuinely hungry it’s not going to harm them going until the morning and they wouldn’t do it again. I keep a drink at the side of the bed, toilet before bed. Mine are almost 5 and 6.

Also the other thing I do is take things away from them if they carry on playing up and won’t settle at bedtime. Usually their tablets. This usually works 😂

My dc are under 9 so dinner is early about 5ish,
at 6.30 if they are not full up they can have fruit, toast or a sandwich only.
Bedtime drink at 7pm.
Bedroom by 8 and lights off 9 latest

It's seems that you are struggling with meeting the needs of 2 children with differing ages and I'm sorry but it all sounds horribly stressful and chaotic.
Children thrive on routine and clubs until 7pm for a 4 year old is far too late.
Prioritise a good bed time routine with 4 year old going up 7pm, tucked up in bed by 7.30pm stories done .
Then your DS 7.30 until 8pm
Clubs are massively overrated IMHO until they are older, just drop them
Far better to prioritise yours and your childrens sleep and well being/ MH than how many clubs they can do in a week.

My son just never needed much sleep at all. When he got to be 6/7 ish I was so exhausted with all the up and downing every night that we came to an agreement that once he was up in his room he could do what he wanted - read/lego/colour/sleep - but once he was in his room it was mummy’s time to be downstairs doing her things. I was studying at the time and had older twins so it worked well for us and he was very happy.

They are taking the piss

No need for tea then a snack /supper later

One drink. Water

If they need a wee they go once

Be strict. Firm and consistent

Single mum of 2 DC both with ASD, sending you a HUGE handhold! Haven't read the full thread but my tuppence worth in the hope it helps, use screens at bedtime for the older DC, once you have this shit with the younger one nipped in the bud you can fade out the screen if you feel it necessary but for now, fuck it make it as easy as possible for yourself my love.

I use melatonin for both mine, the youngest 4.5yr just cannot switch his brain off to sleep without it and can get so beyond himself with exhaustion bless him. My 9yr old only uses it a few times a week now as she can get over to sleep listening to an audio book more and more nights as she gets older. They have zero side effects and the benefits are HUGE and cannot be understated! The paediatrician may be reluctant to give it to you over costs so request adaflex which is a tablet form and mix it with water/juice if they can't swallow tablets, you don't have to give it every night but whilst you are getting this nipped in the bud I'd strongly recommend you try it.

As for your actual question, no you aren't starving them, you know they are trying it on. Give them a slice of apple/1 custard cream/anything small right before they brush their teeth and ensure they know that's it don't bother asking. You know they've been fed so ignore that voice screaming in your head and tell it to fuck off, you are clearly a great mum who understands your children's needs extremely well and it's fucking exhausting doing it all on your own with no support, you won't rear two future criminals if you make life a bit easier for yourself now. I understand the need for them to have a set routine but clearly your routine has changed once with 'D'H no longer around at bedtime (ever?) so you can change it again once they are a bit older and realise they can't take the piss at bedtime

Hang in there sweet it WILL get easier x

Where’s the shower/ bath after a long day at school? lol just straight into pjs

I've been there with a child taking the piss. I wouldn't give snacks, but I do understand that things do take ages. If you want to stop the snacks, you'll need to teach them what will happen well in advance, don't just spring it on them at bedtime.
Sympathies. I get that it's not as simple as some are making out.

Reading your replies sounds like you are doing a lot to help your children try and feel comfortable with the situation.

Would having a monitor on while your with 4yo help 7yo as he'd be able to see you on there?

You're doing great!

We also have a 7 year old, 4 year old and a 2 year old. Dinner (or tea, whichever you prefer!) for us is at 5 as they’re so hungry after school/nursery. There’s no way they’d be able to wait until 7. In fact, in the winter they’re asleep by 7/7.30. In the summer it is usually a bit later as it’s so light. My eldest sometimes tries delay tactics but we rarely allow him a snack or anything. They listen to a Tonie on the Toniebox, however we’ve found that the story ones keep eldest awake as he’s just listening to the story! Song ones are a lot better, however they are all getting a bit young for him how. Often we just put relaxing music on Spotify. I also try to massage a magnesium sleep cream into their legs as well as they often have growing pains or just aches from being so active all day!

Stay strong, good luck!!

Usually shower on a morning, unless we've done something where they're physically caked in mud

A few people have suggested ditching the kids activities, so I'll think on it. What age do/did your kids start doing after school activities?

Trouble is, the kids really enjoy the clubs they do, and on a more selfish note, I like it to. Nights where we have activities are way easier then nights where they're dossing around and bickering, plus I get to spend some 1:1 time with the one who isn't at an activity.

I'm. Going to change my opinion on the activities having realised your full situation. They should stay.

If your bed routine (in terms of no drinks etc) was shorter, the activities would be fine. Overall the activities probably bring more to your life than they take, and being home for a long bed routine isn't needed. Like you said, your actual routine is pretty short.

Could you try taking a tablet or laptop to watch on the landing? Might feel more evening to you.

Poor kids... tea should be about 5 ish.

Then they have a couple of hours to wind down, bath, book and a snack.. brush teeth and then lights off!

Job done by 8pm!

An audio book? Don't you read to them?

Thank you for your kind words, it means a lot. 'D'H isn't around at all as of 3 weeks ago, though hed checked out about a month before that (came to a head 2 months ago when I broke my ankle and he had to actually parent the kids while I was in hospital. He quickly decided their needs were to much for his mental health to bear, so I should deal with it all instead, despite being unable to walk until a few weeks age). Day times are actually going fine, as I was already carrying 90% of the load, so not much has changed. Sitting with the big one while I got the little one down was one of the few use things he did, and I'm struggling to find a way to make it work solo.

Bedtime is tricky as they each have sleep difficulties, but entirely opposite ones. 7yo actually tries and wants to sleep, but cannot get his brain to switch off, so generally needs very gentle reassurance and a lot of quiet patience.

4yo in contrast, could fall asleep in 10 minutes is she wanted, but does everything to fight it. She needs a much harder line approach, but trying to meantain the two different vibes at the same time is difficult.

That's so recent OP. Be kind to yourself and them.

I have a similar 4yo and OH MY. GOSH. Any excuse under the sun to get out of bed.

It's up there somewhere, but the thread is getting long and meandering, so understandable to have missed it.

We tended to read physical books earlier on, before going up. The 7yo benefits from being in the dark for a longer time, to boost his brains production of sleep hormones (which is often poor in autistic people). They're also a bit of a hang over from a time before his anxiety got so bad, where he could be left alone with one.

The youngest was having physical books until quite recently, when I had to combine bedtimes, so there was a bit of a tradeoff between which bits of who's bedtime to keep.

I hear you.

I'm 2 years on from leaving their dad and he's no longer around but it's much easier without him. Yeah there was a couple of basic things he did like yours sitting with your older one but you'll soon work it out I promise and it does get easier. I don't want to sound like some drug pusher but I really do think it's worth trying medication for your older one, my two can be ran like dogs all day and be physically dropping but still can't sleep without the adaflex/melatonin and it really is a game changer. You don't have to give it every night and you don't have to subscribe to a lifetimes supply, just get you through this monumental change of becoming a single parent, getting your older one through the anxiety of being alone and getting your younger one to stop chancing her arm! Then you can reassess and see if the benefits are still needed/worth it. Has your younger one started acting up since her dad left? If that's the case then your parenting will soon reassure her that she's safe, you're not about to leave and it'll settle down again soon enough. Or eventually she will be a teenager and you’ll be back on wanting to know how to get her out of bed! It feels never ending now but it isn't, it will end and you will get through it.

I've read the majority of your replies and it's so clear that you are so in tune with how your DC need to be parented and they are lucky to have you as their parent. Just please don't forget yourself in all this, you need time to grieve the end of your marriage, even if it's a relief and a blessing he's fucked off you still need time to adjust. Use the screens, give them crisps/chocolate etc, just get through the adjustment period then you can gradually fade out whatever you've used as a temporary so help me god get me through this day before I do time for harming this cheeky brat of mine who is pushing their luck! Have a glass of wine/bath/lying in a dark room by yourself when they (finally) go to sleep, whatever you need to get through x

The amount of advice about what time to have tea, what to have seems extreme. You know they are not hungry, they just don't want to go to bed. It does not matter what time you give them dinner, or what protein rich food you provide comest the hour they will do whatever it takes to prolong the inevitable. Just repeat the mantra, the kitchen is closed, go to bed and after a few days the message will be taken!

I've taken my phone up the last couple of nights, since moving out to the airbed on the landing, but should probably dig out some proper books so I'm less of a hypocrite when I tell them they can't have tablets before bed.

The activities really are adding a lot right now, and are one of the few things we seem to be going well. When they were younger all the toddler groups and preschool classes were to overwhelming for them, so for years it was just the three of us together all day every day.

The youth group I mentioned is the first drop off club the 7yo has been able to manage, and is such a big step forward with our strategy to overcome the separation anxiety, (and one day get me out of sitting in his room all evening). The people who run it also do some short summer camp, which he's actually excited to go to and will be an absolute lifeline to me as informal restbite over the next 6 weeks.

The trampolining is a SEN specific meet up. I stay for that one and it's a really nice bit of peer suport for me & the kids have some lovely ND friends there, so it's somewhere they're not the odd kids.

Rainbows is one of the few things the youngest has that is just for her, as she's spent way to much time fitting around DS's needs (his are the more extreme, or at least have been for most of their lives, though at the minute she's ramping up while he's mellowing). She also struggles with other 4yo's and finds slightly older kids easier to get along with (common in autistic girls), so finds friendships there easier then at school.

I really would be loathed to give up any of them, even if it does make our live seem chaotic to mumsnets

Sorry, that one was more of a brain dump then an answer to you. I've got a lot to process and it seems to come out easier when I try and explain it.

Has your younger one started acting up since her dad left?

Yes and no. It's been worse since all the changes, but she's been fighting sleep her entire life. The current messing on is actually mild compared to a year ago when she'd scratch, bite and intentionally pee the bed (I swear she is lovely the rest of the time)

It's more that I'd worked through that and had strategies that were working until now.