To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

They are acting like this because you allow it. Put them to bed, do not change their blankets, do not let them have numerous drinks and toilet trips. Do not speak to them unless you are saying no. During the day tell them there are no treats until they learn to behave at bedtime. A few days of this and they will stop messing around.

I know I sound like a mug, but I tried everything and eventually it was clear that 15mins of lying on the floor, holding my older DD’s hand was not just what she needed to go to sleep and not keep both of them up, but a net gain for me because it wasn’t the hours and hours of disruption all the way until 10-11pm. Much less stress.

That’s fine if it is 15 minutes and it works. The OP is up there 2 hours and it doesn’t!!

I also don't think anxiety is helped by wet lettuce parenting. 2hrs of fanning about isn't helping anyone understand what exactly is supposed to happen. Is it bedtime? Then why is mummy getting me a glass of water/snack/fifteen million other things?
Sit them down, set some ground rules for what they can do in their room (mine could read/draw quietly, if they needed a wee they were expected to sort themselves out) and let them get on with it.

The slot machine analogy helped me get round this kind of malarkey when my kids got to this age. Basically any time you even engage in chat
” no you can’t have a biscuit” never mind giving an actual slice of bread … you are putting money in the slot machine.

Having told them the ground rules - bed at 8 no further drinks snacks etc ….
I just used to guide them back to bed and say calmly “it’s bedtime”. Literally nothing more. Repeat as nauseam. It works. Way better than getting cross, shouting etc. It’s so boring they just give up.

They aren’t really thirsty, hungry etc obvs. The ingenuity of a kid that wants to push bedtime knows no bounds.

Not sure why a snack is necessary before bed. Why the constant need for food? Ours had supper at around 5:30/6pm, then bath, books and bed at 7pm (7:30 by age 8). Door left ajar with the parents downstairs.
They had a cup of water with them and could refill from the bathroom tap themselves if thirsty in the night.
I was not trudging up and down pandering to them, I was enjoying my evening.

It is much more fun for them to play the bedtime game than it is to stay in bed so that is why they do it. Tell them once they go to bed food is not an option. They have already eaten so they won’t exactly starve. Leave water by their bed that they can help themselves to. If they go to the toilet don’t interact with them at all so that it is really boring. Get cross if they go more than twice. They won’t respect you if you are a total doormat and you are being a total doormat -sorry!

Agreed. The four year old should go to bed earlier and you need to get tough here on the messing about. Boring day, loss of nice things etc following messing about.

Then you can focus on the 7 year old.

You're giving them dinner too late, and you don't have a proper bedtime routine.
Therefore they just aren't ready for sleep.

Better would be dinner at 5.30, followed by a short period of play before a bath at 6.30/7. Then teeth, drink of water, read them a few stories in bed before lights out at e.g. 7.30/8pm. Audio books don't have the same benefits as reading actual books and may be keeping them awake. Put a water bottle next to their bed and let them go to the loo if they need it, but don't engage too much and no snacks.

Yikes. Shocked at all these responses about serving supper, cake or icecream before bed?? My 5 year old gets her dinner at 5:15....... and then breakfast at 6:30 the next morning. She doesn't even have a pudding 😬 anything sweet or sugary is consumed pre 3pm to avoid erratic behaviour at bedtime! She's usually asleep by 7:30. However I can remember being a biscuit scoffer pre bedtime and dear mother would send us to bed with a glass of cola 😱 my brother and I still cringe about that now!

Mine were exactly the same OP. It used to drive me absolutely batty, and then when they'd finally stopped fannying about I'd feel awful because it used to make me so angry.

Hang tight, they grow out of it by about 14

OP who is in charge here? Your kids sound so badly behaved jumping about on beds attacking each other at bedtime 😬 they are probably really chronically overtired too, going to sleep so late, which probably then doesn't help the next day.
Is this a pattern repeated in the day where they don't really listen to you /follow instructions? Maybe its worth reading some parenting books /booking a course and seeing if you can change the dynamic in your home to get yourself back in charge?
A pp made a good suggestion of getting the younger to bed half an hour earlier. 7yr old could snuggle in your bed with a book /quiet toy (calm tv show on a tablet even?) while you read to and settle the younger who then has 20-30 min to fall asleep without the older one there distracting. You can then have some quality time with the older, read a book together in low light, before sneaking them in to bed.

I assume they’re sharing a room currently - any way you can separate them?

I agree with an earlier dinner, then a boring snack before bed (weetabix / toast / porridge / banana).

and then maybe it’s time for some tough love, they’re not little babies and it does sound like they’re taking you for a ride a bit.

My daughter went through a stage of declaring she was so so hungry after bedtime at around 4 years old. What I did was only offer a specific type of bread, that she didn't like but would eat if she was incredibly hungry. This stopped her asking if she was just delaying bedtime but on the rare occasion that she actually was hungry, because she hadn't eaten well earlier, then she'd eat the bread.

This. I think you may have to find your stern face and shouty voice, and scare the living shit out of them if they get out of bed once more.

Your eldest is getting close to an age where he should not be sharing with an opposite sex sibling, do you have room to give them their own bedroom? This might help because the younger one should go to be earlier and it would stop her winding him up if she carries on.

They crossed the line of 'them taking the piss' a long, long time ago.

That's a lot of drinking just before bed too. Of course they'll then need to get up for a wee. That can be managed better.

What 'treat' in the school holidays is coming up, say a day out. Make it conditional on none of this nonsense, be strong.

They are, but I don't want it to be the focus here because this particular thing (the million requests after bed) is a kids been little shits thing not an autistic thing.

For the things that are actually down to autism, they get a lot of allowance or adjustment for. Like the 7yo never been left alone and generally being gentler with them. But they definitely have the level of understanding to know they are taking the piss here.

The OP is doing what I used to do. Put to bed, leave, they call out, I go back, leave again, repeat until I fall into bed.

Ah, my elder daughter- the one I had to hold her hand and lay on the floor for 15mins every night for her to go to sleep- she is Autistic and has ADHd

Good on you for not blaming autism. Too many things are blamed on X or Y.. Sure, there's a reason why Billy punched Jill in the face, but there should be zero tolerance on doing it in the first place.

I would refuse to go up to them and if they came down asking for things tell them no tv for the next day if they come down again and stick to it - or no games or no phone or whatever they will really want.

They both have their own rooms, when 'D'H was around and we could do bedtimes separately they both slept in them. Now it's just me, we're all in my room because it's the only place big enough for three.

When I say the 7yo cannot be left alone, I don't mean he doesn't want to be left. I mean if he is left, he will have a screaming panic attack which could last hours and during which he is a danger to himself. Just the staying in the room part I'm fine with and view as a reasonable adjustment. It's the getting up every 5 minimum (which is more the youngest), that I want to tackle.

How does your 7yr old cope with sch? Are you doing anything to work on the not being left alone issue eg gradual retreat techniques? I appreciate it may be down to his autism but long term its not going to be manageable in his life to never EVER be alone - do you have to accompany him to the toilet every single time? Does someone at sch? If not, then he can be alone briefly, and is that something you can then build on?