To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

God you have the patience of a saint OP both with your kids and some of the posters on this thread. Have you thought about melatonin I've heard it's very useful for some ND kids? Or a weighted blanket for your oldest?

A 4 yo in a club that ends at 7???

Jeeez, I thought gymnastics ending at 5pm was pushing it for my 4.5 yo (and we're home by 5:10)

Half an hour reading books is too long in bed. 3 books max and then it's sleep time.

I understand your fixation on routine with your autistic child, but if you're at clubs til 7 twice a week, no routine will work unless it's short and snappy.

The word you are looking for, is 'no'. They are 4 and 7!!!!

Are you on the attention autism FB page? It was set up by Gina Davies who started Bucket Time. Lots of useful tips and advice.
I'd say part of the problem especially for your 4 year old is being overtired which like us means we just can't turn off. I'd start her bedtime earlier then once you've done her story, start your sons.
The club being so late for the 7 year old isn't going to help let alone the late eating can't they eat earlier then have a light snack?

@Namechanges85437854 Our kids liked to pull the same stunt at bed time, I'm hungry/thirsty/need toilet/etc... only thing that stopped it was to physically set a timer in front of them for 20 minutes and then check in with them if they were still hungry. Majority of time they'd be fast asleep within the 20 mins, but they felt that their needs were being addressed by watching me set the timer. On the rare occasions they were actually hungry, they could have a small banana in bed while we waited/stood over them to make sure they weren't messing around/take away the banana skin when done. They were allowed water after brushing teeth, having small non-spillable bottles in their room within easy reach from bed (no getting up to cross the room to get it) but unless they needed the toilet they were not allowed get out of bed. They sometimes still try to mess around / play / keep themselves awake but ignoring them / not giving a reaction helps them fall asleep quicker. Another thing we tried was explaining that their brains fill up with brain-poo (their words!) while they are awake and they need to sleep to allow their brains to rest/get rid of the brain-poo so they can do x,y&z tomorrow - if yours are old enough to comprehend that in your own words it might help too, ours just really needed everything explained logically to them and once they understood why that made life so much easier for us all.

Waited blanket we have done in the past, it didn't make going to sleep any faster but at the time was the solution to night waking.

Melatonin I go backwards and forwards on, because they do eventually go to sleep, and stay asleep for a reasonable amount of time once they're gone, I think I'd feel guilty that they'd be dealing with side affects, mostly for my convenience. If it ever got to the point where they weren't getting enough sleep and it was effecting them, then that would be different.

Every now and then I feel desperate enough that I think I should talk to the pediatrician about it, but then we have some better nights, that make me want to hold off.

The time of tea isn't set, I just gave the time we happened to have eaten that day, to show how long they had gone without food. Usually it's between 6-7, but on nights with clubs, they have early tea before they go. The time of tea varies often enough that the done see it as set, so are fine with that moving.

The club the 4yo dose is rainbows, which I'm reluctant to stop as she enjoys and seems to get a lot out of it. Every kid there is 4-7, I assumed that was normal, it seems to be for after school clubs around here. Does no one else's kids do activities?

The 7yo has trampolining 5-7 and youth group 4.30-6.30, this kind of time window seems to be standard and we'd struggle to get anywhere earlier as they don't get in from school until 4.

They are delaying bedtime. My twins used to be terrible for this. They eat about 5:30-6pm, up to bed at 7:30 and I allow them a snack before bed. I bring water into the room. One drink, one toilet trip and that’s it. Unless they are ill or something else is going on.

The bit that actually is a set routine (teeth, pajamas, into bed) is only about 5 minutes long, as thats what I can commit to doing every single night. PP have commented that that is too short and I should add to it, but as you say, that doesn't work for us on the nights we're late in.

How are you reading 3 books in less the half an hour? I read 2 & 1/2 chapters, was only aiming for 2, but there was mild peril, so didn't want to stop until it resolved, incase she was worried and that kept her awake.

Although I totally get not wanting a routine I've never worked with or had my own family have issues with meal times most people get hungry at reasonably set times but accept a snack or full meal. I'd be more worried about setting a routine that sees you sat on the landing in view until they are adults if they are that fixed on routine. I've also had a lot who get fixed on games and stay up all night so a visual times up helps.

Tbh long chapters prob arent really suitable at age 4? Do you not read stuff like Topsy and Tim, much shorter stuff?
If it is some of the shorter chapter books just do 1 chapter, 10-15 mins is plenty of time for them to get drowsy listening to you, then lights out! Wash/ Clean teeth before you start reading, you want them to get snug and cosy and feel a bit sleepy, lamp only not the big bright light!

Whilst I'm not a massive fan of spending my evenings sat there, I'm OK with being there as long as I'm needed, and for now I am still needed. Hopefully in time he will gain daytime independence, then we'll be ready to work on night.

I'm pretty sure he's not going to want mummy sat with him when he's a teenager.

OP I’m not really sure what you want from this thread? Actual advice or just to vent? I assume it’s the latter as all efforts if the former are just pushed away by you. We’re all absolutely here for you to vent/chat, but maybe don’t ask for advice if that’s not really what you’re after.

You're reading chapter books to a 4yo, why ?

Stuff like gruffalo, Johnny duddle, that's not my hat etc are far more suitable and quick to conclude. I can do 3 in 5 minutes too!

Sorry if it seems I'm been obtuse, that's not my intention. It's more that I'm 7 years into dealing with poor sleep, so have tried a lot of things already, many of which either didn't work or aren't suitable for one reason or another.

What has been helpful so far was the reassurance that it's OK to refuse excess food / drink after bed, and the suggestions around moving back to two bedrooms, and how to manage been needed in both. Many of the other suggestion have been perfectly reasonable and would have been good advice for someone in a similar but slightly different situation. Explaining why they wouldn't work in this particular situation, does not mean that I don't appreciate the effort or think it would be good advice to some.

We changed over when I started doing both bedtimes together, as the 7yo would be pretty unimpressed with going back to picture books. Last night it was just the book that she asked for.

She's only a few weeks off 5 and it's things like magic faraway tree or fantastic mr fox, so short chapter books.

Though I expected that my actual problem is that I've just become a single parent to two children whose needs (at times) require 1:1 care. The song and dance of bedtime is really just a symptom of that.

Of course they’re going to play up. You’re engaging with it

Hopefully not I'm working with a soon to be 13 year old boy who doesn't want to leave mummy's bed

I really hate a lot of the harsh comments on here disguised as tough love. Being a mother is really hard, nobody is perfect and making yourself vulnerable by putting it on a forum is like throwing yourself to the wolves sometimes.

I sometimes want to put something on here but genuinely would fear the responses - a lot of mum shaming!

Sending supportive hugs. You're right, this is just another time when you're feeling the "aloneness" of your situation.

You sound a really caring, understanding and supportive mum. These kids have clearly been through it a bit too with the break up. That will explain some of their behaviours.

You’re making a rod for your own back there. Just say a firm NO!! It’s just stalling and delaying tactics and they do it because they know you’ll give in! My eldest used to do the same, I soon nipped that in the bud, us busy parents neeeeed a bit of ‘me’ time in the evening!!!

I think all kids try this trick, I know mine did at the age and we had to implement a firm routine and we as parents had to stand firm as they weren’t hungry or thirsty, they want to be up dicking about.
Now 13 and 9, both boys with hollow legs, they have tea at 5pm. After tea they have a bath/shower and chill out. They get supper at 8pm which is crumpets or cereal with fruit or yoghurt and a drink. You need to set the expectation that there will be no more food and drink after that time and it is time for bed/kitchen is closed. Our 13 year old still tries his luck so we increased his dinner and tea portion sizes. He’s well covered and will never starve no matter how much he whinges.

Hiya, so sorry to hear of your difficulties.

The solution is to try to tire them out by their days activities.

Good luck.