To not get DC a snack

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Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

Why aren't you going downstairs?

You’ve made a rod for your own back allowing them to keep you in the room for 2 hours every night. If they’re eating tea that late and snacks before going upstairs then they aren’t going to starve not having you give them more food half an hour later in bed. It’s going to be hard while they adjust to that not happening but you need to be firm and explain why it’s so unreasonable for them to be up until that time each night. Of course they’re going to cry, they’ve had you dancing a merry dance for years.

2 hours is madness! No wonder they do this because they get all that extra time with you.

Do bedtime routine and then go down. If you keep saying no and putting them back to bed they will get it.

Once you know for sure what they’re asking for they actually need it makes it so much easier.

Can’t you just stay down stairs and let them get on with it?

Could they be too hot? When kids are uncomfortable they're bad at working out what the cause is. So instead of realising they're too hot, they guess they're thirsty or hungry etc.

My nearly 4yo is in just a stringy vest and pants going to bed these days. Anything you could describe as proper pyjamas, she'd be far too hot in and wouldn't be able to settle down.

(And I describe my house as a cold cave)

She's never thirsty in the evening or night - just drinks a small cup of water at toothbrushing time and that's all she seems to want till morning.

I think if your kids keep saying they're thirsty, they're too hot

I always tell my dc that their energy comes from sleep and not food that time of night.

They don’t need that much drink or snacks once in bed. They are just using every kiddie excuse in the book.

Make sure any drinks are just water, unless it’s hot I’d limit the amount anyway once it’s bedtime otherwise it is a million pee’s. If mine ever do still come for a snack it’s plain boring crackers and each have a water bottle next to their beds only. Just as I have a glass of water.

If we do have a night where the youngest try’s her old up and down once we hit two downs I declare unless someone’s sick or bleeding I don’t expect to see anyone out of their bedroom unless for a toilet only.

I wouldn’t have offered even bread.

Honestly allowing them out of bed that many times is fuelling this. 2 hours every night isn’t normal for bedtime.

I assumed they were toddlers but then fact that they are old enough to not need taking for a wee makes it even more ridiculous that you’re up there with them dragging this out for 2 hours. You need to get strict!

I have this problem too OP - and a husband that's soft as marshmallow who gets quite angry at me and says 'you eat when you're hungry let them'. 😤

If one of mine didn't have severe food aversion to most things I would insist the only bedtime snack was a banana as at least they help you sleep.

They can't be left alone, the 7yo has pretty bad anxiety, and won't be anywhere without an adult. This isn't just a bedtime thing, if he wants something from another room and I won't go with him to get it, he won't have it instead of going by himself. It takes him a long time to go to sleep, but he is generally cooperative, unless he gets drawn into the 4yo's messing around.

The 4yo fights bedtime every step of the way, and always has. She probably could be safely left alone, but would not go to sleep and would not leave the 7yo alone.

The first half hour is cuddles & listening to the book together, then I turn into a broken record of

Shush, no talking it's sleepy time.
Or
Lie still, it's sleepy time.

Omg no wonder they aren't going to sleep if you are in there shhing etc. Do they share a room? If they do id want to try and find a way to put them in separate rooms and you need to not be in there - knowing you are there /your presence will absolutely be keeping them awake. They aren't babies.
And they absolutely do not need food they already had a late tea at 7pm!! Are they poor eaters that you honestly think a child that finished eating 7.30 is hungry again 45 min later, you need to just say no you just had dinner you're not hungry stop mucking about!

Absolutely not. You need to get firm it cannot take that long.

whats happening about the 7yo’s anxiety? Who is he seeing professionally and what do they say about the best way to manage him?

I wouldn't sleep either if someone was hovering in my room telling me to lie still every 5 min

That's why we had all the blanket changes (thin summer quilt, swapped for blanket, swapped for flat sheet). Pajamas in this case were vest & pants, put on at the changing into pj's part of the routine.

I think I would work hard at not engaging at all. I would explain that you will stay in the room but you will not be talking with them as it is bedtime and then no responding no shushing, just sit quietly. I would only react if they turn the light on and just turn it off. But no food. They can't be starving at that point.

I once read a joke that said " no one is as dehydrated as a toddler whose just been told to sleep". And ain't that the truth .
Anyway, they're pushing the boundaries and sorry to say, you're falling for it.
I have a 2 and 4 year old.
After we've brushed teeth, no one gets anything to eat. I've explained to them how bad it is for their teeth, so sorry, I'm responsible for your teeth. You can get something first thing in the morning. And repeat. They only asked the first few nights.
It happens whenever you start allowing something, they want gazillion other things
We have a cup of water for each on their bedside table, which they're welcome to drink from.
We've recently port trained our 2 year old and then when our 3rd baby and she had a few accidents probably due to the change. And dang the kids are so smart.. so she knew were hyper vigilant so she doesn't pee her pants, so if she so much as whispers 'wee' we pop her on the potty .
And it took her about a week to realise this is my ticket our of bed. She'd say I need to wee and on the potty she goes and then shes 'not done ' for ages.
Just back in bed after 10 minutes on the potty. 'i need to go nr. 2'
Same story. (Nothing in the potty btw)
Took me about 3 days before I realized I'm being taken for a fool here. Now we gently remind her. You can go in the morning darling. Obv I do watch for signs and know her routine. Eg if I know she didn't wee after bath I might take her, but otherwise nope.
Again it only took about 3 night and she stopped because she know she's not getting anyway with it.
And believe me I also struggle with thinking 'awh but what if they're really hungry'. But I remind myself that they won't starve and sleeping is really important for their health so I need to prioritise that. And they're overall more happy if they have a boundary. No food after teetg brushing. Yes to water, but no to food. They're more secure if they know what they can expect and what not.

They aren’t hungry or thirsty, they just don’t want to go to bed.

And they’ve got you right where they want you!

This.

7yo can see you from the landing. Sit there and don't engage.

What's the ongoing anxiety treatment?

If the 7 year old has a separate room why not introduce a monitor with a talk function. That way you can reassure from a distance that you can hear him if there’s an emergency but you’re not up and down and going in and you can simply respond on the monitor “I’ve heard you, you’re ok, go to sleep”.

The four year old you absolutely need to be much firmer with. You can be calm and caring still without going in so much and definitely they don’t need you there as they drift off. Go in, sing a song/ tell a story etc, give a cuddle and then leave. When my (now 5DS) was around 3 I would say I’ll come back to check on him in 10 minutes. 9/10 times I could see o on monitor that he’d already drifted off before I needed to go back in. Sometimes it’s just the reassurance you’re near that comforts them to sleep. But I think once you’ve started creeping out their rooms as they sleep it’s a difficult habit to break and there will be tears.

If this this severe to be impacting sleep so much then hopefully there is a service via the GP or even school counselling to support him and you but the current system in place is too disruptive to everyone’s sleep/ your chill out time.

Why don’t you have dinner earlier for the kids and supper? That way they can have a slice of toast / bowl of cereal before bed and a drink. I wouldn’t let them get up for food or drink after that as it is just pissing about and at their ages they know how to get round mum. Crying hysterically as they are hungry sounds dramatic. I’d dial things right back, tell them tonight they are not getting out of bed once in (obviously if really need the toilet I’d let them go once but anymore they are just making excuses).

No way they're trying it on! At that age mine had dinner more like 5.30-6pm and a small snack and drink of milk before bed about 7.30pm but there's no way yours are hungry.
Mine tried every trick in the book to not settle down and sleep and the only one they knew I wouldn't say no to is needing the toilet! So they strangely always needed to get back up to use the toilet
It is normal for kids to not want to go to bed but it sounds like you need to be a bit stricter with them (and I'm saying that as a fairly soft parent)!

I think you need to do some grey rocking as they are clearly playing you. I also agree with PP that the 7 year old needs some help to manage the anxiety as that's not normal at that age.

Pediatrician and CAMHS are aware but not much help as they write everything off as part of autism. It probably is, but that doesn't make it any less problematic. His OT is a little better, and we are working through an independence building strategy, but still working on daytime independentce. Leaving him alone at bedtime would definitely be a big step to far and moving to fast tends to lead to regression.

When we did separate bedtimes, I'd just have a lie down in the same room until he's asleep, but now I've got both of them, I need to interveen more to stop the 4yo winding him up or jumping on him.

I would move dinner earlier, then add in a glass of milk and crumpet or toast after bath and before bed. That way you know they are not hungry and are just playing up.

I also wouldn’t be in the room with them. 4 year old is put to bed first, you can read to them whilst 7 year old is in the bath with the door open, then 7 year old comes down for their supper and book whilst 4 year old goes to sleep.

7 year old goes up half an hour later.

They will mess at first especially the 4 year old but when they are used to the routine should be asleep before 7 year old gets there.