To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

I'd do bedtime, get them into bed after story etc, then sit by the door in silence. Ignore any talking, sit so they can't get by etc. On repeat. They'll soon stop

I’m a single mum to 3 girls with ASD and have been on my own with them since my youngest was born so I’ve got 10 years of experience trying to put multiple kids with varying needs and ages to bed with only one set of hands. It’s hard, it’s exhausting and it makes every day feel like a fight because you know bedtime is coming every day. You are doing great, absolutely brilliantly and you need to try and remember that as you negotiate this situation because it’s hard when you’re in the eye of the storm.

from what you’ve said here, and from my experience with my daughters, I’d say your 4 year old is anxious about transitioning into sleep, it is a massive sensory and physical change to go through. There may also be dreams she’s having during sleep that she can’t actually remember or put into words but are still there in her brain. What she needs is to be reminded that she’s safe and that you’re there to look after her while she sleeps.

Personally I’d try and separate bedtime for the two, using screens to entertain the older one if necessary (reduced screen time is not actually recommended in the same way for ASD people) and then I’d focus on the 4 year old, cuddling her, reading to her, explaining how sleep works, tell her you know it feels strange to fall asleep, that you know dreams can be weird, that you sometimes have trouble falling asleep yourself but that you always feel better for it in the morning. Talk to her about where you’ll be while she’s asleep, tell her that it’s your job to keep her safe and look after her while she sleeps and that you are more powerful and braver than any monster or any worry she has and that you’ll protect her from those while she lets her body rest.

there is no need to have snacks after bedtime but you could get her a drinks bottle so she can have water in bed. Trips to the toilet have to happen but if you’re with her and she has your attention she probably won’t need to go.

Once she feels safer and more confident in transitioning to sleep, because she trusts you are telling the truth about it being your job to keep her safe while she sleeps, she’ll need you physically there for less and less time.

its not quick, as in it may take weeks or months, but all three of mine got there eventually.

NO NO NO NO & did I say NO?!?!
They’ve eaten, they’ve drank and they’ve been the toilet…. They’re in bed and they need to sleep .. end of!

If they play up they loose tech, that trip to the toy store tomorrow or something that will give them incentive, but stick to I! They’ll cry and make demands but it’s just delay tactics and testing you… you say No and you mean it. Sit them down tomorrow and write down the routine, tell them once in bed you expect them to sleep and that’s it.. kids are master manipulators and you have to stand firm…

I do think though that the final meal and drink should be at least 2 hours before bedtime… you have to give that fluid time to get through.. if they need a wee after lights out then you say… quick pee and back into bed without another word!! Then just say a firm no and leave them to cry (it’s not crying because they’re starving… they’re crying because they’re not winning/getting to stay up.

I remember stringing bed time out for as long as I could… literally waiting for my dad to loose his shit and threaten us!…
all I can say is put boundaries in, win even the small battles, I’ve seen what happens to children who push boundaries and win… my friend gave in to every tantrum.. now has two teens who rule the roost, attend school only when they want, stay up all night and sleep most of the day…
So be firm and tell them, don’t ask… and if they play up they have consequences…. They’ll give up playing you when they realise you won’t back down.
Good luck x

At 5 and 7 I would suggest earlier dinner that takes longer than 30 minutes and a snack and one drink (like toast and a milk drink) before bed.

Can they have a cup of water next to their beds in case they are thirsty?
Why do they have to ask or tell you that they want to go to the toilet? - you should be hearing little footsteps going to and from the bathroom rather than an attention seeking statement or request.
if they are hot they can take off their pyjamas without an announcement or request at that age surely?
I wonder if you feed them earlier with small snack later, give them more a bit more independence (but keep to bedtime), and stop running around after them, things might improve.

Don't give up the activities, they are so beneficial to children, especially as the youth club seems to be helping with your 7 year old's separation issues.

I really think its worth trying melatonin, it was an absolute game changer for my oldest who could never fall asleep and bedtime would take hours every night. Especially for ND children, who often don't produce enough melatonin/produce it at the right time themselves. There can be side effects, they might be a bit groggy in the mornings, at least to begin with, and there is a chance they will get nightmares but not everyone gets nightmares with it (my DD didn't) but I still think its worth trying.

Just to add OP I don’t stick with regular bedtimes either. So mine are almost 5 and 6 and I still lie down with them at night (don’t care what anyone says I enjoy it, it’s our time to discuss our day). I gauge how busy we have been in the day and what time they got up then decide on bedtime, if I know we got up late and have had a lazy day I’m not wasting time lying down when I know they aren’t ready. If we’ve been up early and busy day then earlier bed, sometimes it’s half 7 others half 9. Also if one wakes up early I wake the other one up to make sure they are both tired at the same time at night. I’m a single mom and it is tough but it does get easier. You will get your routine given time.
it sounds like your a great mom, tending to their needs, just toughen up a bit with the no food after lights out, drinks at side of bed and it will soon be fine. Good luck, you can do this

Most likely delay tactics as others have said, however, extreme thirst and weeing alot are symptoms of diabetes, I got it when i was 5, it runs in my family. Are they thirsty & weeing lots during the day?! Not trying to be dramatic here, but I just wanted to say, after my own experience, it's worth ruling out for sure. Otherwise, good luck, it's likely to be a phase. My 4 YO has started being "hungry" right before bedtime too!

It's a good suggestion to rule out, but the extreme thirst only strikes after lights out.