To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

It probably is, we used to do youngest at 7 and older one at 8, but didn't seem fair to move oldest bedtime earlier when he was already having a tough time.

Yeah, mine used to try that, I'm on my own with them a lot as dh works away so I'm often tired and spent after a long day and I'll be fucked if I'm putting up with fuckwittery at bedtime, they tried it for a few nights and then I snapped, told them they are fine/fed/watered etc, and if they got out of bed again there would be consequences (was too tired at the time to think up said consequences), and told them they WILL stay in bed, or else. They stayed in bed.

I've thought about that, but what if get up number 3 (or whatever is passed the allowed amount) is the toilet. I wouldn't put it past the 4yo to intentionally pee the bed if I don't let her go (she has form), and changing all the bedding is an even longer delay.

You come down like a absolute tonne of bricks on her. You say that the passed are toilet passes if you needed to, none of the other things they're doing are actual needs.

The more you write, the more it sounds like you're quite a permissive parent. I don't know if you actually are though. What consequences do they have for poor behaviour at other times?

I think two bedrooms might be what we need to work towards. When the 7yo has been less anxious, he's managed to stay in bed with an audio book, while I put the younger one down (with both doors open). But even then could only really go 30 minutes, and the 4yo soon realised that she just needed to hold out that long, then I either need to interrupt her bedtime or leave him to he get upset.

One bit of progress we have had recently is DS will sometimes go into other rooms if we video call. Potentially that might help him keep kalm during DD's bedtime, but not sure if having screens at bedtime would do more harm then good, so haven't tried it.

Some people probably think I am, most consequences are exaggerated natural (like, if you can’t follow instructions, I can't keep you safe when we're out, so we'll need to go home or if you can be sensible in your car seats, I can't drive us to soft play). If they can't see the logical link, they just see it as random meaness and then feel too betrayed/ angry to be able to process the learning. The only thing I tend to do more external consequence for is violence, that gets zero tolerance in out house, and will usually result in any upcoming treats or outings being cancelled, or if we don't have anything planned a toy confiscated.

The majority of behaviour management is reward or praise driven. Might be frowned on, but it works better for us.

The problem with bedtime is that I'm not going to keep them awake by giving said reward, and something next day or later is to abstract to keep them focused. Consequences are also tricky, as natural consequences like being too tired the next day are also to detached but unrelated consequences I can give immediately are most likely to result in meltdowns, as they don't see the logical link. I will ride out the meltdown if I feel its important, like if I've cancelled a trip for hitting, but hours of screaming at bedtime, isn't good for anyone's sleep, including our neighbours. So I am probably more wet lettuce-is at bedtime then the rest of the time.

Do something not fun, so it stops them wanting to be awake.
Spellings, times table, reading, word cards....
Hand one drink tell them that is it.
They need the loo. Go up do not talk, or as little as possible
Sorry I am too tired to talk.
Quick quick, back to bed...
Also try a ticking alarm click.

Perhaps you need to say no more at bed time then and stop pandering to their every whim.

The natural consequence is mummy gets bloody pissed off and stops replying after 2 interruptions. Pick up and back to bed now, on repeat.

I think @SeaToSki has a great solution - definitely break the cycle the 4yo is in first by dividing and conquering. They really need to be back in their own rooms.

I don’t know how finances are right now but we’re an ND household and thus has been great for DS who sounds a lot like the 4yo,
www.amazon.co.uk/Immver-Projector-Compatible-Assistant-Dimmable/dp/B09XCDW1WC/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?adgrpid=116553471254&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.12isZk3yUHOFmcJekj5XVlGabOPTs6IXRqhKabaWGJD6s5GZpNFT3CR5Hst9op1RXmpulXCESeFp-QHHE4a2ZlLFfpt9-s8Z5oM3wFe4usbDDitCbbhhta0Cfb7JXB41NHktH6Bnb-Q545y-al-c50qocu4PpFP05sLJPekT-oxq1J0LhQbZTMpnkks_00Yfi0dKN1R0ZICuLoIfr8EEPQ.2MCIze7W170hIINo5cqZF4tzpFEjZUs_3g0id5GI1os&dib_tag=se&hvadid=498422619257&hvdev=m&hvlocphy=1007850&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=12191317969332661802&hvtargid=kwd-303840010974&hydadcr=16911_1798551&keywords=galaxy+light&qid=1721672069&sr=8-7

Can't you just take her to the loo right before she has to sleep? Story and just before lights out, she quickly runs to the bathroom.

I think you are massively overthinking this

they can't see the logical link, they just see it as random meaness and then feel too betrayed/ angry to be able to process

What???

You are the parent, responsible for their care and safety and they need to know that you will do this.
There is nothing more frightening for children than permissive parenting
I think the bargaining with reward / praise problem is you end up with children who need bribing to do everyday normal stuff.
It makes you appear weak rather than in control and if they don't want to comply they wont.
They don't actually learn why they need to do these things

Some things are absolutely non negotiable, car seat,brushing teeth, not running near the road and so at nearly 5 and 7 there should be no discussion at all.
They know the expectation by now surely?

Keep the steps simple, repetitive and low key in a this is what we do way.

Never ever gave mine food after they'd gone to bed. And they had a sports bottle filled with water by the bed. And they could take themselves to the toilet. So I think you need to nip this in the bud.

I probably didn't explain it well.

Mine do better when they understand why I'm telling them to do something, so 'you can't do x because of y' works much better for us then 'you can't do x because I say so'. They also struggle with emotional regulation, and when the emotional load goes up, the thinking and communication ability goes down, as they just don't have the bandwidth for both at once.

That mean they are most likely to do/not do something, and remember to do/not do it next time, if I explain clearly, while they're in a relatively calm state. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences, there are, but they need to be logical and communicated calmly.

Ok that's exactly what I also meant but I also have what I call non negotiables such as the safety/ expected things I mentioned above that don't need explaining every time.
I'm afraid I couldn't allow that type of chaos surrounding bedtime and it would be one of those
It's bed time end of

Explain it clearly in the day time what you expect at bed time.

Then come bed time, it's a quick 'bed now' every time and that's it.

I really think you're not framing bed time as a non negotiable in your mind. Your. Kids clearly see it as a negotiation time, and spend 2 hours negotiating with you.

Well they're both asleep, which is good, but we started at 7 so it still took two hours. DS did very well at staying in his room an watching his table (yes, I know screens before bed but needs must). We went up at around 7, probably 7.15 by the time we'd done wees and DD had picked a book.

Read to her for about half an hour then lay with her for a bit. By 8 DS was struggling with been alone but DD was still awake, so I left her with instructions she must stay in bed, while I went to do his book. Unfortunately I only got 10-15 minutes with DS, which I feel kind of bad about after he did so well waiting but DD was just passing about more and getting less settled. I then lay on an airbed on the landing outside both bedroom doors, and they eventually both went to sleep.

I would start bedtime earlier!

That’s a positive step OP! Well done.

Question about the 4 year old… does she have any little small world toys to play with in her bed as she goes to sleep? She sounds quite high energy and like it takes her a while to wind down and get to sleep. that winding down time might not be something you can really control, so if she currently doesn’t have any, perhaps she could pick something quiet to play with in bed? My rule for DS has always been ‘head on the pillow’ - eg he can play with his dinos, little robots etc as he gets sleepy, but the head needs to be on the pillow.

Sounds much better Op
Would a bath help your DD wind down?

Bath teeth 15 mins
Reading 15 mins

Same for your DS and bedtime is 1 hour
I think half an hour for reading is too long if she messes about

We purposely took the bath out of the bedtime routine years ago, as my kids can't cope with a routine you follow 90% of the time. Once things become part of the routine, they get really unsettled if you skip it. So it really wouldn't work if we were ever late getting in and didn't have time or they fell asleep in the car and we carried them in to bed (more a thing when younger).

They have clubs that finish at 7pm a couple of times a week, and I would want to start baths at that time, so we do morning showers instead.

^ wouldn't want to start baths at that time

Stop playing their game sit them down in the morning and say it's not happening anymore.

It's definitely not unreasonable to not give them a snack when they've eaten their dinner that late . They aren't hungry

Tbh op a 4/5 year old is too young to be doing a club that only finishes at 7. They should really be heading to bed at that time especially with school the next day. Id stop the clubs or try and get an earlier slot - surely with a 7pm finish time by the time you get home and to bed they must be shattered?

Im also confused about your routine - if they are at clubs til 7pm 2 nights a week when is dinner eaten those nights? Earlier? Surely a 4yr old isnt waiting til gone 7 to eat? It just sounds like a lot of the routine in your home us simply too late for kids this age who should be lights out by 7/7.30 - in your home dinner, bedtime etc are all very late and when kids are overtired they can seem very energetic and behaviour deteriorates.
One of mine sometimes went to bed as early as 6.30 at 4/5 yrs old.

This - OP you need to be heading upstairs at like 6pm with kids this age