To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

Also in that can you and 7yr old almost put younger sibling to bed in their own room, together? Can they be your helper, then you and 7yr old leave younger one in bed to go to sleep and go and have a story in another room?

Your kids are completely taking the piss out of you. Find a backbone and be strict with them. Sit them down and draw a list up on a big sheet of paper. Bath. Story. Bed. That is it. Pin it up on the wall and keep reminding them of the new mummy and what's going to happen tonight. Tell them there will be NO more up and down and you will be returning them to bed with No speaking atall. Keep doing this they get the message. And they will believe me. Also watch the 3 day nanny back to bed routine on you tube. Stick to it. Do not talk. Keep returning to bed. Do it for them aswell as yourself. No one needs this rigmarole at night time there's no need for it. Do it tonight.

We're working with school & OT on gradually increase his independence, but it's a long process and if we go to fast the change makes him more nervous, and then he regresses in other areas. In school it doesn't come up as often, as there would be very few times when he would be alone anyway.

For the toilet, he no longer needs me in with him, which is progress at his worst/ most anxious. We have one off our kitchen which he'll go to if I'm in the kitchen. But if we're at someone's house where he'd have to go down the hall or upstairs, he'd need me to come and loiter outside the door. At school he's fine at playtime as they'll be other kids in the other stall or at the sink, but if he needs to go during lesson, his 1:1 would walk him to the door & wait outside for him.

Will your 7 yo sit on the landing outside the 4 yo room while you put them to bed?

Sorry to disagree but I suspect this absolutely IS part of their autism.

Both of my boys are autistic and I had hell with sleep with both of them when babies and some issues lasted longer - they’re 11 & 6 now.

But that doesn’t mean you can’t make a difference.

Also, mine have ALWAYS needed less sleep than other children.

The 6yo goes down between 9.30 & 10.00 and wakes at 7. An earlier bed time results in absolute chaos.

If your kids need less sleep then put them down later.

Use a visual timetable, use objects of reference, you also need to get your 7yo’s anxiety under control. Is he having ELSA? Seeing a therapist?

You cannot separate this from autism - autism is pervasive and affects every part of a person’s life. Strategies that work for NT children will not necessarily work and can be harmful. You need a proper plan and to start over.

The answer here would be a firm no to all of that rubbish.

Okay so can you work towards a situation where you can be in and out of his room at bedtime while putting sibling to bed? All doors open so he can hear your voice, could he be snuggling in bed while you are in the next room reading to younger one but pausing every 2-3mins and coming into him to reassure?

I'd work on gearing the 4 year old in their own room and having the bedroom open and the 7 year old sitting outside it while you do that

If you can sort out the youngest it gives you more time to then work on the oldest

Just say no. Every single time. They are not hungry after eating dinner. They won't starve. Just consistently say no. They will stop asking

I mean, they’re autistic and by the sounds of it have just gone through their parents separation… so I don’t think any of their behaviour is too surprising at the moment really!

Quite.

@Namechanges85437854

You are honestly doing yourself no favours ignoring the autism here and not mentioning it in your OP.

The ‘just ignore and shut the door’ will not work and your children will be severely affected. The kinder you are and the more autism-aware in your methods the better. Both of my boys now go to sleep without any issue. Not easy, it was a long road, but leaving them crying would have been very damaging.

I think you are gettng mugged off.
Water only to drink
No food once in bedroom - just ban food

Definitely no food after bed. The hysterical sobbing is intended to get you to change your mind.

What part of sitting in a room for 2 hours cuddling them is "just ignore and shut the door" or makes you think I'm leaving them to cry? They get lots of adjustments for the thing that are down to autism (like staying until their asleep to help DS stay calm). But autism dose not make them need to pee 6 times in an hour or need to eat an hour after tea. Those particular things are just them being kids and messing on.

@Namechanges85437854

i didn’t say you were - but people are suggesting those as solutions which won’t work for your children.

If you don’t want to hear the truth - that your children’s behaviour is related to their autism - you’ll get nowhere.

You can make changes but you need a proper strategy that will work with their needs.

It’s not enough to say ‘this isn’t autism, it’s kid stuff because for your children they’re the same thing and are inextricably linked.

If the 7yo is autistic it could be affecting his sleep. I'd ask on a mire specific special needs forum.
If it was me I'd also have them in separate rooms.

I don't think you can leave the autism out of this OP, you're just going to get people telling you to take a hard line on this behaviour and that leaving them to cry won't do any harm at this age. That might not be the right approach here and I wonder if the OT might have more insight here than us lot.

Absolutely.

Both my children have eating issues. They will either vomit at the table if ‘forced’ or they will just not eat if there are no safe foods, even if very hungry. The same strategies don’t work on ND children as NT even if the behaviour appears the same.

No way. Bedtime is bedtime. I never gave my kids drinks, snacks or anything after that time. It was bedtime story, lights out and they were to stay in bed and sleep after that. I would sit outside the door and read for a bit if they wanted a bit of security knowing I was there. It was a while ago, but my two are now really good at getting to sleep (as teenagers). I was pretty strict on bedtime routine at primary though

At 5 and 7 I would have been doing dinner at 5.30 and in bed about 7 to be asleep by 7.30. Your routine sounds very late to me

My question is, is it unreasonable to not give them a snack, when I know they are fed and just using it as a delay tactic. Their autism doesn't effect that question (yes some will have hunger related sensory issues or not understand the caurse and effect of eat now or you will be hungry later. That is not the case here)

I'm not asking if I should be staying with them, and have explained several times why I don't intend to stop. I'm also perfectly capable of ignoring any advice that doesn't work with there needs. I find it useful to listen to a wide range of experience, including from parents of NT children and find that when I start threads with the fact they're autistic, no one can get past either a stereotype view of autism or the idea that my autistic children must be just like theirs, when as we all know, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person.

When they actually lie down and try to sleep, they are asleep within 20 minutes, so if I could stop the extra get ups, that would get bedtime down to an hour, which would be better for all of us. Including my overtired 4yo and my 7yo who is gets upset about being kept awake when he wants to sleep.

Fine @Namechanges85437854

I won’t post anymore.

I would move to 2 separate bedtime routines with dc in their own bedrooms

Ask 7 yr old to help you with 4 yr old as he is the biggest. So dinner bath and jammies all together starting from 5/5.30pm. 4 yr old in bed at 6.30 and 7 yr old reads him a bedtime story while you listen. Then good night to 4 yr old and you and 7 yr old leave the room and both go downstairs

7 yr old gets half an hour of audio book while you ignore 4 yr old and return him to bed if necessary. 7 yr old can put audio book on noise cancelling headphones so is not interrupted by 4 yr old antics and can sit on the stairs so is not alone and also not close enough to be targeted by 4 yr old.

Then you go and sit with 7 yr old while he falls asleep in his bedroom..and ignore 4 yr old asking for anything. If 4 yr old leaves his bedroom then read the riot act and hold bedroom door shut. Hopefully 7 yr old will be ok while you do this, maybe you can video chat him from the hallway if he needs to see you as well as hear you, or sing a lullaby etc.

The key thing is to break the 4 yr olds habit of bouncing out of bed and manipulating you first as that then gives you the bandwidth to deal with the 7 yr old.

Then in the morning lots of positive feedback for any improvements

I totally appreciate you were trying to help 😀

It seems you've discerened that the problem is the get ups (for whatever excuse) so cut them out and they'll sleep better.

Why not try the 2 cards and once they're used, they're used approach?