To not get DC a snack

[Namechanges85437854]

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric, but bedtime has got so far out of hand, we can't even see the hand anymore.

7.30 - finish tea & had plenty to drink.
7.45 - does anyone want anything else before bed?
7.55 teeth, drink of water, pj's & wee
8.00 into bed & listen to audio book
8.30 book off & lie down for sleep

Then
I need the toilet
I'm so thirsty, I need a drink
I've finished my drink, I need to go get more
I need the toilet again
I'm too hot, I need a thiner blanket
I want to take of my pj's off
I need the toilet again
I'm hungry

Last night at 9.45, after 6 toilet trips, countless drinks, 2 drink refills, 3 different blankets & 2 "falls" out of bed, I lost it and said no one was getting out of bed for any reason before morning. 5 minutes later they're both crying hysterically because their starving!!! And why won't I let them eat!!

I did relent and give them a slice of bread each (the most boring snack I could think off), but struggling to find the line between what is me being awful and what is them taking the piss. I'm pretty sure 90% is them taking the piss, but how do you account for the 10% when they might actually need something?

They are both old enough to understand. During the day at about lunchtime sit them both down and explain your bedtime expectations. Tell them you will sit with them but you won't talk to them. They will have a drink and a snack before bed if they want it but there will be no food or drink once in bed. (They will survive the night). Explain that if they get out of bed there will be a consequence, run through all the reasons they give and explain they do not need to get out of bed or even tell you about them. If they are hot they can take off the blanket otherwise all their other problems will be solved by just going to sleep. Just before bedtime remind them of your expectations and solve all their problems. Such as give a snack, give water, take to the toilet, extra blanket at the bottom of the bed. Then put them into bed and do not say a single word. Do not react to the crying the shouting or anything. Just sit in silence they will eventually go to sleep. Make sure the following day you give praise or consequences depending on their behaviour. The follow through is very important.

Yes but these kids are not in fact going to sleep so its not working is it 😂

I always gave them glasses of water (well plastic sippy cups beside their bed. I would suggest making sure they are drinking plenty in the late afternoon too

Definitely the key to this is helping your anxious DC7 to manage bedtime. My DC now 20 was diagnosed at 14 and we didn't know at 7 they were autistic but very anxious at night , bedtimes used to take me ages like yours . The thing which helped was moving into own room ( both DC in one room would wind eachother up all the time ) luckily we had tiny box room . Then we worked out a routine just for them , and eventually it worked . I lost my evenings for a long time so totally understand. The anxiety needs routine and there might be something in the routine that not working for him .
Also look up Naomi Fisher - psychologist who does webinars about this sort of thing .

I also would suggest you read them a chapter or two of a book each evening so they get that time with (one of) you, an audio book isn't the same

You're getting played. Stop being a wet lettuce

They are 100% taking the piss.

Tea nd las drinks at 5pm and bedtime routine at 645, sleep at 7pm. Any drinks fter 5pm are dribbles of water amd no getting out of bed again until morning.

Be firm and consistent. No child is going to starve or dehydrate because they haven't had something for 2 hours. They will end up exhausted, hungrier and angrier and struggling to learn or behave, which is a self perpetuating cycle, of you don't enforce clear boundaries.

Mine is only 2 but even he will try every trick in the book to try and get me to say. Absolutely no snacks at bedtime. It’s a stalling tactic and it will also re-energise them instead of tiring them out. You know how much they’ve eaten during the day (and presumably they are not starving) so you just need to hold firm.

Make tea earlier, give them a snack 30 mins before bed. Water in a bottle next to the bed. Wee right before bed. Then any time they get up, return them to bed. You know they're not hungry (they've just eaten), they have a drink with them and they've just been to the toilet. Do not engage, just silently return them every time.

@Namechanges85437854

Are your children Autistic? I’m a bit confused as you mentioned it but I can’t see another reference to it.

If so what strategies are you using in terms of visual aids and preparation etc?

Try physical books again, one per kid, as the final thing they do in bed before lights out.
If they muck about it's straight to light's out.
Try a red light string in room.

If the kids are fed, watered and have been to the toilet it is reasonable that they are expected to lie quietly or sleep.
Accept no noise and teach them how to get up quietly to go to the toilet without disturbing the others and how to sip from their own (small) water container if thirsty.
Accept only one extra toilet visit per child before sleep.

If hunger is an issue remind them that they need to eat more for breakfast in the morning. And remind them to eat all their dinner tomorrow night.

Your kids are misbehaving, Op..

They're old enough to be shouted at now. No more nice mummy.

Don't let this go on, you'll end up with nightmare bratty entitled kids that hate you - you won't be able to change this after a few more years when they're teens.

Kids respect authority. They might moan in the short term, but they'll appreciate the firm hand and clear boundaries in the long run. They'll respect you more too. Embrace being the boss!

It's unfair they're both loosing sleep because one is misbehaving... they grow up and blame it all on you too...

I would get rid of the audio book for a start, have tea around 3/4pm then a snack before bedtime, read them a story in bed and then that's it. Each time they get up just tell them to go back to bed as they will look for excuse after excuse to get up again.

They are playing you like a fiddle.
Do your bedtimes routine.
Then, 1 small drink, 1 toilet trip and then that’s it.
They cannot possibly actually need any of the things they are requesting. They’ve been fed and watered and toileted.
They are bored. They need to be bored for long enough to just ho to sleep.
Return them to bed without commenting for as long as it takes. No more messing.

put tea time back where it belongs. Introduce a supper that they choose and be clear - no more food at all beyond that, and only water to drink in small amounts to stop the weeing. Dark or black out curtains, quiet calm rooms - remove all distractions/toys from sight, keep temperature cool and return them to bed all the time. I would do story time, chat, last loo visit and teeth then into bed and I would monitor get ups and if it is more than 2 then the next day there is a consequence and you are clear with them what that is and why and repeat it consistently. Then reduce to 1 get up then reward for no get ups.

It won't be easy I battled for years with mine - she just didn't need much sleep and still to this day doesn't - what 19 yr old do you know chooses to get up around 7 even after working weekend etc. Mind you she is on her way home and she is in for a shock with 2 new pups and 5am starts at the moment lol

Kitchen is closed.
No more water or you'll pee all night.
Use your other blanket.
Stop messing about or mummy's going to get very angry.
Don't be scared, mummy is just outside. Go to bed.

I also tried to teach her counting games for sleep - 1. sheep classic 2 times tables and 3 count x head to one side, same head straight and same head to otherside but besides keeping her in bed didn't really work. We had some success with story CDs

But if you’re giving dinner and hour before bed and they ask for food once they’re in bed you just say no!
It sounds like you just let them dictate everything.
You’re giving in to every demand so of course they keep pushing and pushing. You’ve taught them that bedtime “sleepy time” doesn’t mean go to your bed and stay there, it means a big 2 hour dance about it you doing whatever they ask.

Not much help in saying that is there?

Give some PRACTICAL advice - that is what she is here for, not insults

I have this problem too OP - and a husband that's soft as marshmallow who gets quite angry at me and says 'you eat when you're hungry let them'.

And your answer to this is, 'OK, you let them. You get them something, if you think they are hungry, and you settle them again.'
Let him show everyone what a better parent he is.
It's bad enough when the kids are playing you, stop him from second guessing you as soon as you can. A couple of weeks of him up and down should get him on side.

The thing that stands out is very little transition into bed time , particularly important for ND children
Dinner 6-6.30
Remind that no further snacks will be given
Quiet play or a gentle programme, ours like wildlife stuff no animals eating each other though
7pm upstairs for bath
They choose their books and place them on the bed, any mucking about means no story
7- 7.30 bath
7.30 dry, teeth, remind no snacks just water
Into bed, stories
8pm lights out,
If they get up firm reminder it's bed time
1-2-3 Magic is good gives them a chance to turn it around

If they are silly then next day unfortunately we won't be going to the park, party, etc as you will be " too tired" as you were silly at bed time.

Clearly your current routine is not working. That’s far too late a bedtime for a 4 year old. Go back to basics - tea 5, snack 6.30, teeth & pj’s 7, read a story in bed with 4 year old. Older one can sit on the landing/your bed with book/ipad til you’ve read story (they will have to learn to do this). Then story/chat with older one then bed for them at 8. Younger one will be asleep by then once routine is established. You really do just need to decide your timings then stick by them. No faffing with drinks/toilet/changing sheets and pj’s, no lying with them or near them. You are literally just making them worse.

Oh one of my DDs was like that, still is. Has always been a FOMO hyperactive girl. Nightmare to put down for naps or night time from when she was a baby.

My next younger one is exact opposite. At 10 months she started just putting toys down, crawling up the stairs and I’d follow her and she will have picked up her baby doll, crawled onto her futon, pulled her blanked up and started a nap all on her own!

Fast forward to the same ages as yours and my younger one happily went to bed but as they share a room, I would get complaints that the older one is keeping her awake. The older one was constantly thrashing, thirsty, heard a scary bump- is it a monster? Sometimes she told my younger one she’s seen a huge spider and my younger one is terrified of spiders and that got her screaming for me.

I am sorry but I have found that once I have done story time at 8:30, I had to lie on the floor until they both fall asleep. Often I held my elder daughter’s hand
I think she was for some reason afraid to go to sleep on her own. She’s always was this way from a baby.

She out grew it gradually by age 11.

I gave my 5year old a raw carrot once when she asked for a snack.
She ate it 😂

Never thought I'd even consider restricting access to food/drink/toilet, it sounds barbaric

Don't be silly. Feeding them slices of bread and giving them drinks after bedtime is crazy. You've kind of made a rod for your own back here though.

My youngest is 7 and he's had no drinks or food after bedtime since about age 3. Kitchen closed, sorry kid.

Just stop doing it and learn the word no. Tell them in advance there will be no drinks or snacks tonight and then stick to it and decline every single request.

If you're stuck upstairs for a while, take your phone or a book and ignore them. And stop with the 'shhh sleepy time' nonsense and start with the 'dd you get back into bed right now and be quiet. Enough!'. If she cries, she cries. At the moment she's running rings around you though and gentle parenting clearly isn't working.